Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Okay, drawing ships from Grayson was a specific goal. I don't see how what I said was incorrect. It was not specific enough for you, I can see, but it was not incorrect.

You ever heard of lying by omission?

One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

This reeks of a similar gist.

Caparelli and Givens would make the distinction.
Janacek would be 'incorrect by omission.'

I don't see how what I said was incorrect.

Unless you are the GSN and a powerful Havenite force came tap dancing happily into the system demanding your surrender after you committed strategic suicide by reassigning your ship strength because Janacek was incorrect by omission.

Whoa, wait a minute! Now you are accusing me of lying?!

You asked:

cthia wrote: What I ultimately don't understand is what was the importance of Minette? Obviously it was important because, in retreating and giving up the system, Admiral Stanton was looking ahead to strategically make reaquiring Minette easier with his en passant tactic. (This is a perfect example of the passed pawn idea on the chess board projected onto a real battle field, which was not lost on me.)

SWM wrote:I answered the question--it wasn't important except that it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance, and attacking or capturing it would force Manticore to move ships. No, I didn't mention that it would specifically force Manticore to move ships from Grayson, but that wasn't what you were asking. You were asking about Minette, and why it was important. Where the ships would have to come from is irrelevant to the question of the importance of Minette. I apologize for not adding details which were not relevant to the question, but I don't appreciate being accused of lying. I'm sure that isn't what you intended, but it is the implication you made.

****** *


Now I'm really disappointed in you SWM. I would never accuse you of lying. I've got far too much respect for you. And for my own upbringing. There are indeed a core of posters on this site that are indeed decent. You are definitely one of them.

Incorrect by omission is of a 'similar' gist as lying by omission. Inasmuch -- and only inasmuch -- as the 'gist' part is the omission which leads to an important misconception.

But the operative word was changed to convey the 'proper' intent -- "lying" was displaced by "incorrect."

'Incorrect by omission' is what I accused you of.

But. If you feel that I accused you of lying, then here is my formal apology...

"Attention All Posters, I was not accusing SWM of lying. He is far too decent a poster for that!"

I formally make that statement because it is true and you do not deserve to be called or too closely inferred to be a liar -- in case anyone else may have assimilated the wrong meaning and intent. You are far too decent a member of this forum. And such actions are not among my normal or regular MO for a reason.

What you say I asked, is true.

cthia wrote:
What I ultimately don't understand is what was the importance of Minette? Obviously it was important because, in retreating and giving up the system, Admiral Stanton was looking ahead to strategically make reaquiring Minette easier with his en passant tactic. (This is a perfect example of the passed pawn idea on the chess board projected onto a real battle field, which was not lost on me.)

But you posted it out of context. I asked about Minette's importance in relation to it having an FTL net. (Throughout the series and even now, I was under the impression that that technology was only showcased in certain systems -- Grayson, Erewhon (I'd understand Beowulf, but I doubt it), Sphinx and Manticore itself. Even regarding the Hermes buoys, I got the distinct impression that they are only found in the Manty Home system.)

It appeared that you received that question as intended and proceeded to answer it -- which is my highlighting of your post, following. The statement that immediately follows was taken as a lane change. Granted, it did not begin a new paragraph and may have been incorrectly misconstrued by me. But it is as I read it.

And as I read it, it is incorrect. I supplied the incontrovertible textev. From the POV of Haven it is incorrect. And Haven's POV is also of paramount importance to the discussion.

Remember the Star Trek episode where Picard made Data a temporary Captain of a Federation vessel to afford the fleet enough ships to deploy a tachyonic sensor net to catch the Romulan ships trying to invade Federation space with their cloaking device? Well, the Romulans employed the same tactic as Haven. The Romulans were trying to get the Federation to reassign ships in the deployment to weaken the net at the 'less capable' sector of space controlled by the 'machine' -- Data. (So they thought.) If the Federation had reassigned ships other than what the Romulans were trying to instigate would have amounted to a failure of the tactic. *As Operation Stalking Horse would have thusly been a failure. As the Romulan strategy was also a failure - thanks to the same machine, Data.

SWM wrote:
My impression is that Minette did not have any significant strategic value. It was important only because it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance. Manticore had to protect the members of the Alliance or it would lose those members' support. Haven attacked Minette to put pressure on the Manticoran Alliance. Pressure might cause members to leave the Alliance. Attacks on the members would certainly cause the members to demand more protection from the RMN, which would weaken their offensive forces. And Manticore would be obligated to free any Manticoran Alliance member system which was captured, as soon as possible. If they didn't, the other members would wonder about Manticore's commitment to protecting them.

The FTL platforms almost certainly have self-destruct systems. That's what they mean by scuttling. The FTL Comm secret was not in danger in Minette, because they could destroy it at any time, and did so. As a full member of the Manticoran Alliance, Minette certainly deserved the FTL Comm platforms.

*As it were, Operation Stalking Horse in itself was almost a complete success, except that it did not get the reassigning of Grayson Superdreadnoughts that it had thought. Therefore the follow-up phase of Operation Dagger was itself thrown a dagger by Harrington in "The Fourth Battle of Yeltsin."

Thurston's plan of attack was contingent upon previous PN attacks on Candor and Minette having drawn all eleven of the GSN's Manticore's Gift-class superdreadnoughts out of the system and he was to learn the truth, that only the Second Battle Squadron had been drawn away, far too late to save his command. (HH5)

The reason I believe you to be incorrect SWM and also the reason I may appear to be so anal on this point is that the precise letter of the strategy must be adhered to lest the entire plan fail or succeed. And if we do not take that into account regarding the entire discussion of Minette then how can we adequately discuss Minette if we do not take into account the exact reason Minette happened? Strategically.

No offense intended.

What's interesting, is that my initial statement responsible for this little disagreement...

No, Haven attacked Minette to draw forces away from Yeltsin's Star. That was the entire strategy of Operation Stalking Horse.

was almost penned with a "To be more precise..."

But, I determined that to be misleading in itself, because - in this specific case - anything less precise in scope would have resulted in a disaster for Haven (as what ultimately happened at Fourth Yeltsin) thus incorrect.

So, to be more specific (and correct) I vetoed 'to be more precise.'

Go figure! Meddling Murphy.

My apology has been tendered.

Star Trek scene referenced: https://youtu.be/VoN0NhO-Mm8

An explanation of the scene, which mimics Haven's tactic of an attack used as a diversion to get an amenable redeployment of ships as a response. The Romulans needed to get supplies to an uprising through an assembling of Federation ships that had deployed a tachyonic sensor net that would detect cloaked ships. The Romulans wanted the Federation to redeploy and fall back to Gamma Eridon (which almost happened) with a diversionary attack on Gowron. Gowron(a Klingon officer representing the Klingon Empire and part of the Alliance) was the Romulan equivalent of Minette. The target sector the Romulans were going to actually utilize to run the blockade was the sector occupied by the Sutherland (Data's ship). The Romulans attacked Gowron in another sector with 12 ships as a diversion to make the Federation(Picard) believe they were going to run the blockade there. Picard fell for it by ordering all ships to rendezvous at Gamma Eridon, but Data didn't fall for it.



.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Not a good analogy Don, at least not from the bone I picked. The FTL platforms were not exactly drawing dust overstocked in the warehouse, AFAIK.

Question, in case I got it wrong.

The FTL net in Minette seems to imply a permanent system variant. Not deployed from ships???

The receiving and transmission systems aboard stations would obviously not be deployed by ships. The systems around the perimeter of the system would necessarily be deployed by ships.

And I say again, I am pretty sure that all Manticoran Alliance member systems had FTL comm deployed as part of their defensive network.
[edited to remove accidental repetition]

Johnathan_S wrote:Deployed by ships, yes -- how else would they be brought into the system and taken to their deployment points.

I didn't think the ones referred to in Minette were deployed by ships and that confusion is solely responsible for my imprecise shorthand that follows. The FTL net referred to in Minette seemed to be a more robust permanent system variant. The entire idea of that is what I was initially questioning. Now I see that I was in error, but I didn't think any systems other than Grayson, Sphinx, Erewhon, Trevor's Star and Manticore itself would sport system variant FTL platforms.

But I suspect Cthia was using "deployed from ships" as an (imprecise) shorthand for ship launched standard FTL capable recon drones. (newer versions of what Honor used at Yelson during HotQ)
I got the impression that the platforms at Minette (and every other Alliance member) were larger, longer endurance, and had greater sensitivity that those ship recon drones -- the array at Minette had the outer zone positioned a light-hour out from the star. Probably brought in and deployed by freighter as a more permanent emplacement; rather than deployed from the boat bays of the picket's warships.

So too did I.

(Interestingly the command Truscot gave was to scuttle Tracking Centeral and blow "all the inner-system platforms". Don't know if they'd count the ones up to a light-hour out, several times further than the hyper limit, as "inner-system".)

This added to my confusion. It implies a real investment of money, time and resources that I thought odd for what seemed to me to be a second or third tier system.

Vince wrote:The very first evidence that there is a production problem leading to a shortage of remote FTL sensor platforms is a minimum of 4 years and 2 months after the attacks on Candor and Minnette. (Stalking Horse took place cJuly 1907 P.D., and the Battle of Adler took place October 3, 1911 P.D. Dates from Established dates throughout the Honor Harrington series.) Two books later, after the loss of Trevor's Star by the PRN to the RMN, when during the planning meeting for a sweep by Rear Admiral Tourville's forces (that eventually resulted in the Battle of Adler, followed by Prince Adrian's surrender and Honor's capture by the PRN), Citizen Captain Yuri Bogdanovich says:

In Enemy Hands, Chapter 8 wrote:"Our current areas of interest are these three systems," he went on. "Sallah, Adler, and Micah. According to our latest intelligence dumps, the Manties have taken Adler and Micah, but we still hold Sallah. Unfortunately, the data on Sallah is over two weeks old, so with your permission, Citizen Commander Lowe and I recommend beginning our sweep there, then moving south to Adler and Micah before returning to Barnett."

***Snip to Citizen Commander Shannon Foraker speaking***

"First of all," the ops officer began, "we have to bear in mind that Manty tech systems are still better than ours across the board. On the other hand, they haven't been in possession of Adler or Micah long enough to have deployed their usual sensor platform network. Even if they had been, their operational patterns around Trevor's Star indicate their Sixth Fleet is short of platforms just now. That, at least, is NavInt's interpretation of their increased use of destroyers and light cruisers as perimeter pickets, and it makes sense to me, too. If they don't have enough sensor platforms, they'd have to cover the gaps with ships. I also think it's a fairly safe bet that if they're short at someplace as critical as Trevor's Star, they're probably even shorter in the much lower priority systems in our operational area. If they do have a sensor bottleneck, it's probably temporary, but until they get it fixed, it offers us a window of opportunity."

I'd like to expand on this one small part of your lengthy and well taken post.

First, thanks for running down the text-ev on the FTL platform shortage. I think that the fact that they're starting to run short of platforms a few years later, after they've captured a bunch of new systems, doesn't tell us much about the availability of platforms prior to Stalking Horse. They could have been (and likely were) slowly building up the sensor nets of Alliance signatories from the moment they joined the Alliance right on up until Stalking Horse.

And, in my opinion (which ties back into the part of your post I snipped about being willing to use the capabilities that they have), deploying those platforms then as a force multiplier is a better use of them than stockpiling them for future emplacement in captured systems -- even systems as critical as Trevor's Star.

But after some of the platforms are blown during Stalking Horse, and Manticore captures a bunch of systesm, that's when they seem to have a shortage of FTL platforms. A production throughput problem. Due to replacement needs and new systems to defend they got a surge in demand without a corresponding surge in production capability. Leading to a (relatively) short term shortage.

Or at least it is short term because they have to halt their expansion and go into a phase of maintenance and refit, to prepare for the next offensive. That gives them time to get the platform deployments to play catch-up.

Vince wrote:The very first evidence that there is a production problem leading to a shortage of remote FTL sensor platforms is a minimum of 4 years and 2 months after the attacks on Candor and Minnette. (Stalking Horse took place cJuly 1907 P.D., and the Battle of Adler took place October 3, 1911 P.D. Dates from Established dates throughout the Honor Harrington series.) Two books later, after the loss of Trevor's Star by the PRN to the RMN, when during the planning meeting for a sweep by Rear Admiral Tourville's forces (that eventually resulted in the Battle of Adler, followed by Prince Adrian's surrender and Honor's capture by the PRN), Citizen Captain Yuri Bogdanovich says:

In Enemy Hands, Chapter 8 wrote:"Our current areas of interest are these three systems," he went on. "Sallah, Adler, and Micah. According to our latest intelligence dumps, the Manties have taken Adler and Micah, but we still hold Sallah. Unfortunately, the data on Sallah is over two weeks old, so with your permission, Citizen Commander Lowe and I recommend beginning our sweep there, then moving south to Adler and Micah before returning to Barnett."

***Snip to Citizen Commander Shannon Foraker speaking***

"First of all," the ops officer began, "we have to bear in mind that Manty tech systems are still better than ours across the board. On the other hand, they haven't been in possession of Adler or Micah long enough to have deployed their usual sensor platform network. Even if they had been, their operational patterns around Trevor's Star indicate their Sixth Fleet is short of platforms just now. That, at least, is NavInt's interpretation of their increased use of destroyers and light cruisers as perimeter pickets, and it makes sense to me, too. If they don't have enough sensor platforms, they'd have to cover the gaps with ships. I also think it's a fairly safe bet that if they're short at someplace as critical as Trevor's Star, they're probably even shorter in the much lower priority systems in our operational area. If they do have a sensor bottleneck, it's probably temporary, but until they get it fixed, it offers us a window of opportunity."

Johnathan_S wrote:I'd like to expand on this one small part of your lengthy and well taken post.

First, thanks for running down the text-ev on the FTL platform shortage. I think that the fact that they're starting to run short of platforms a few years later, after they've captured a bunch of new systems, doesn't tell us much about the availability of platforms prior to Stalking Horse. They could have been (and likely were) slowly building up the sensor nets of Alliance signatories from the moment they joined the Alliance right on up until Stalking Horse.

And, in my opinion (which ties back into the part of your post I snipped about being willing to use the capabilities that they have), deploying those platforms then as a force multiplier is a better use of them than stockpiling them for future emplacement in captured systems -- even systems as critical as Trevor's Star.

But after some of the platforms are blown during Stalking Horse, and Manticore captures a bunch of systesm, that's when they seem to have a shortage of FTL platforms. A production throughput problem. Due to replacement needs and new systems to defend they got a surge in demand without a corresponding surge in production capability. Leading to a (relatively) short term shortage.

Or at least it is short term because they have to halt their expansion and go into a phase of maintenance and refit, to prepare for the next offensive. That gives them time to get the platform deployments to play catch-up.

I appreciate the textev regarding the FTL platform shortage as well because the shortage is what fuelled my initial concerns and post. I was always under the impression that there was a shortage, even from the beginning.

Initially the shortage was intentional, the RMN didn't want to reveal the capability prematurely. Then the shortage became as a result of some problems with the design of the tech that needed ironing out. Then the shortage was as a result of a production bottleneck. In my head - throughout the series - the shortage persisted, for whatever reason.

That fact is what fuelled my post. I couldn't figure out why such an expensive and limited supply of critical platforms would be risked and employed on a second or third tier system (that would be inadequately defended to boot) of which I couldn't determine any militarily strategic or tactical benefits. (Albeit, any political benefits notwithstanding and not considered.)

I must add that I also got the impression that the platforms were limited in HotQ as well. During that lengthy battle IIRC, Honor ran out of the platforms. I think I recall her saying that she was down to her last one deployed. I remember thinking why so few are included on ship. I could be wrong about that. My point is that, all throughout the series the impression that these things didn't exactly grow on trees hung in the air.

Quotes reordered due to embedding limit.

Vince wrote:The very first evidence that there is a production problem leading to a shortage of remote FTL sensor platforms is a minimum of 4 years and 2 months after the attacks on Candor and Minnette. (Stalking Horse took place cJuly 1907 P.D., and the Battle of Adler took place October 3, 1911 P.D. Dates from Established dates throughout the Honor Harrington series.) Two books later, after the loss of Trevor's Star by the PRN to the RMN, when during the planning meeting for a sweep by Rear Admiral Tourville's forces (that eventually resulted in the Battle of Adler, followed by Prince Adrian's surrender and Honor's capture by the PRN), Citizen Captain Yuri Bogdanovich says:

In Enemy Hands, Chapter 8 wrote:"Our current areas of interest are these three systems," he went on. "Sallah, Adler, and Micah. According to our latest intelligence dumps, the Manties have taken Adler and Micah, but we still hold Sallah. Unfortunately, the data on Sallah is over two weeks old, so with your permission, Citizen Commander Lowe and I recommend beginning our sweep there, then moving south to Adler and Micah before returning to Barnett."

***Snip to Citizen Commander Shannon Foraker speaking***

"First of all," the ops officer began, "we have to bear in mind that Manty tech systems are still better than ours across the board. On the other hand, they haven't been in possession of Adler or Micah long enough to have deployed their usual sensor platform network. Even if they had been, their operational patterns around Trevor's Star indicate their Sixth Fleet is short of platforms just now. That, at least, is NavInt's interpretation of their increased use of destroyers and light cruisers as perimeter pickets, and it makes sense to me, too. If they don't have enough sensor platforms, they'd have to cover the gaps with ships. I also think it's a fairly safe bet that if they're short at someplace as critical as Trevor's Star, they're probably even shorter in the much lower priority systems in our operational area. If they do have a sensor bottleneck, it's probably temporary, but until they get it fixed, it offers us a window of opportunity."

Johnathan_S wrote:I'd like to expand on this one small part of your lengthy and well taken post.

First, thanks for running down the text-ev on the FTL platform shortage. I think that the fact that they're starting to run short of platforms a few years later, after they've captured a bunch of new systems, doesn't tell us much about the availability of platforms prior to Stalking Horse. They could have been (and likely were) slowly building up the sensor nets of Alliance signatories from the moment they joined the Alliance right on up until Stalking Horse.

And, in my opinion (which ties back into the part of your post I snipped about being willing to use the capabilities that they have), deploying those platforms then as a force multiplier is a better use of them than stockpiling them for future emplacement in captured systems -- even systems as critical as Trevor's Star.

But after some of the platforms are blown during Stalking Horse, and Manticore captures a bunch of systesm, that's when they seem to have a shortage of FTL platforms. A production throughput problem. Due to replacement needs and new systems to defend they got a surge in demand without a corresponding surge in production capability. Leading to a (relatively) short term shortage.

Or at least it is short term because they have to halt their expansion and go into a phase of maintenance and refit, to prepare for the next offensive. That gives them time to get the platform deployments to play catch-up.

Yes, it took the RMN a minimum of 4 years and 2 months (or two books) after Stalking Horse (that's how much later the Battle of Adler was) before they started to run into FTL sensor platform shortages.

cthia wrote:I appreciate the textev regarding the FTL platform shortage as well because the shortage is what fuelled my initial concerns and post. I was always under the impression that there was a shortage, even from the beginning.

Initially the shortage was intentional, the RMN didn't want to reveal the capability prematurely. Then the shortage became as a result of some problems with the design of the tech that needed ironing out. Then the shortage was as a result of a production bottleneck. In my head - throughout the series - the shortage persisted, for whatever reason.

That fact is what fuelled my post. I couldn't figure out why such an expensive and limited supply of critical platforms would be risked and employed on a second or third tier system (that would be inadequately defended to boot) of which I couldn't determine any militarily strategic or tactical benefits. (Albeit, any political benefits notwithstanding and not considered.)

I must add that I also got the impression that the platforms were limited in HotQ as well. During that lengthy battle IIRC, Honor ran out of the platforms. I think I recall her saying that she was down to her last one deployed. I remember thinking why so few are included on ship. I could be wrong about that. My point is that, all throughout the series the impression that these things didn't exactly grow on trees hung in the air.

The FTL sensor platforms (which were actually RDs) were not limited (at least in terms of numbers available to cover the system) in the The Honor of the Queen. They were range and bandwidth (data pulse rate) limited though:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 22 wrote:“Admittedly, moving away from Grayson will open the threat window. We have, however, certain technical advantages we believe are unknown to Haven.”
A stir went through the Graysons, and she felt Truman’s residual unhappiness beside her. What she proposed to describe to the Graysons was still on the Official Secrets List, and Truman had opposed its revelation. On the other hand, even Alice had to admit they didn’t have any choice but to use it, and that meant telling their allies about it.
“Advantages, Captain?” Garret asked.
“Yes, Sir. Commander McKeon is our expert on the system, so I’ll let him explain. Commander?”
“Yes, Ma’am.” Alistair McKeon faced the Grayson officers. “What Captain Harrington refers to, gentlemen, is a newly developed reconnaissance drone. RDs have always played a role in our defensive doctrine, but like every surveillance system, light-speed data transmission has always limited the range/response time envelope. In essence, the RD can tell us someone’s coming, but if we’re too far out of position, we can’t respond in time.”
He paused, and several heads nodded.
“Our R&D people have been working on a new approach, however, and for the first time, we now have a limited FTL transmission capability.”
“An FTL capability?” Calgary blurted, and he was far from alone in his astonishment, for the human race had sought a way to send messages faster than light for almost two thousand years.
“Yes, Sir. Its range is too limited for anything other than tactical purposes—our best transmission radius is only about four light-hours at this time—but that’s quite enough to give us a marked advantage.”
“Excuse me, Commander McKeon,” Admiral Matthews said, “but how does it work? If, that is,” he looked at Honor, “you can tell us without compromising your own security.”
“We’d rather not go into details, Admiral,” Honor replied. “Less because of security, than because it’s too technical for a quick explanation.”
“And,” Matthews grinned wryly, “because it’s probably too technical for our people to duplicate even if we understood the explanation.”
Honor was appalled by his remark, but then a rumble of chuckles came from the other side of the table. She’d been afraid of stepping on sensitive toes by flaunting her ships’ technical superiority, but it seemed Matthews understood his people better than she did. And perhaps it was his way of telling her not to worry.
“I imagine that’s true, Sir,” she said, smiling with the right side of her mouth, “at least until we bring you up to speed on molycircs and super-dense fusion bottles. Of course,” her smile grew, “once the treaty is signed, I expect your navy is going to get much nastier all around.”
The Grayson chuckles were even louder this time, tinged with more than an edge of relief. She hoped they didn’t expect a God weapon to come out of her technological bag of tricks, but anything that bolstered their morale at this moment was well worthwhile, and she nodded for Alistair to continue.
“Basically, Admiral,” he said, “it’s a reversion to old-fashioned Morse code. Our new-generation RDs carry an extra gravity generator which they use to create extremely powerful directional pulses. Since gravitic sensors are FTL, we have effective real-time receipt across their maximum range.”
“That’s brilliant,” a captain with Office of Shipbuilding insignia murmured. Then he frowned. “And difficult, I’d imagine.”
“It certainly is,” McKeon said feelingly. “The power requirement is enormous—our people had to develop an entire new generation of fusion plants to pull it off—and that’s only the first problem. Designing a pulse grav generator and packing it into the drone body came next. As you can probably imagine, it uses up a lot more mass than a drive unit, and it was a monster to engineer. And there are certain fundamental limitations on the system. Most importantly, it takes time for the generator to produce each pulse without burning itself out, which places an insurmountable limit on the data transmission speed. At present, we can only manage a pulse repetition rate of about nine-point-five seconds. Obviously, it’s going to take us a while to transmit any complex messages at that rate.”
“That’s true,” Honor put in, “but what we propose to do is program the onboard computers to respond to the most likely threat parameters with simple three or four-pulse codes. They’ll identify the threat’s basic nature and approach in less than a minute. The drones can follow up with more detailed messages once we’ve started responding.”
“I see.” Matthews nodded quickly. “And with that kind of advance warning, we can position ourselves to cut them off short of optimum launch range against the planet.”
“Yes, Sir.” Honor nodded to him, then looked at Admiral Garret. “More than that, Admiral, we’ll have time to build an intercept vector that lets us stay with them instead of finding ourselves with a base velocity so low as to give us only a limited engagement time before they break past us.”

Immediately following this conversation, the Masadan's base on Blackbird moon is revealed, followed by the Battle of Blackbird. The battle results in:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 24 wrote:Captain Harrington and her officers started to rise as Admiral Matthews walked through the hatch, but he waved them back, embarrassed by their deference after all they’d done. He nodded to Commander Brentworth and noticed that Harrington’s Marine officers were also present.
“Thank you for coming, Admiral,” Harrington said. “I know how busy you must have been.”
“Not with anything my chief of staff and flag captain can’t handle,” Matthews said, waving away her thanks. “How bad are your own damages, Captain?”
“They could have been worse, but they’re bad enough, Sir.” Her slurred soprano was grim. “Apollo’s impellers are undamaged, but she has almost two hundred dead and wounded, her port broadside is down to a single laser, and her starboard sidewall is beyond repair out of local resources.”
Matthews winced. He had far more casualties, and his entire navy had been reduced to two cruisers—one of which, Glory, was badly damaged—and eleven LACs, but it was the Manticoran vessels which truly mattered. Everyone in this room knew that.
“Fearless got off more lightly,” Harrington went on after a moment. “We’ve lost our long-range gravitics, but our casualties were low, all things considered, and our main armament, radar, and fire control are essentially intact. Troubadour has another twenty dead, and she’s down two tubes and her Number Five Laser. She’s also lost most of her long-range communications, but her sensor suite is undamaged. I’m afraid Apollo is out of it, but between them, Fearless and Troubadour are still combat effective.”

The loss of Fearless's gravitics made Fearless reliant on Apollo Troubadour to read the grav-pulses from the FTL RDs (acting as FTL sensor platforms). At the conclusion of the Battle of Blackbird, but before the Masadan ground base on Blackbird moon was assaulted, the FTL RD net had been put into position:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 24 wrote:“Agreed, Sir,” Honor said quietly, “but your freighters have deployed our recon drones, and Troubadour and Apollo still have the gravitic sensors to read their transmissions. Should the other Peep return, we should have enough warning to get under way and intercept him with Fearless and Troubadour, particularly since he’s most likely to be headed for Blackbird, anyway. As for the threat to Madrigal’s survivors,” the living side of her face hardened, “I’m very much afraid it’s lower than the danger to them if we don’t go in. Our information on their treatment is limited but disquieting. Under the circumstances, any reasonable risk to get them out quickly has to be considered acceptable. And, despite Major Ramirez’s deprecation of his battle plan, I have great faith in him and in his people.” She met Matthews’ eyes squarely. “Given the information we have, I believe this is the very best we can do. I’d like your permission to try it.”

After the Masadan ground base on Blackbird moon had been taken, and the few surviving Manticoran prisoners rescued, Captain Alice Truman in Apollo pulled out for Manticore to sound the alarm and bring back the relief force, leaving Fearless relying on Troubadour for all gravitic FTL detection, both directly observable from the ship and the grav-pulses from the FTL RD network emplaced in the Yeltsin's Star system:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 28 wrote:Ten minutes later, she stood on her own bridge, watching the direct vision display as Apollo broke Blackbird orbit. The light cruiser’s damage was hideously apparent in her mangled flanks, but she drove ahead at five hundred and two gravities, and Honor made herself look away. She’d done all she could to summon help, yet she knew, deep at the core of her, that if help were truly needed, it would arrive too late.
She felt her tired muscles listing under Nimitz’s weight and made herself straighten as she switched the optical pickups to the surface of Blackbird. A time display clicked downward with metronome precision, and the visual dimmed suddenly as it hit zero. A huge, silent boil of white-hot light erupted from the frigid surface, swelling and expanding in the blink of an eye, and she heard her bridge crew’s barely audible growl as it wiped away every trace of the Masadan base. Honor watched for a moment longer, then reached up to rub Nimitz’s ears and spoke without looking away from the dying explosion.
“All right, Steve. Take us out of here.”
The moon fell away from her, and she turned from the display at last as Troubadour formed up on her ship. They were together again—her entire remaining squadron, she thought, and tried to shake the bitterness of the reflection. She was tired. That was all.
“How’s our com link to Troubadour, Joyce?” she asked.
“It’s solid, Ma’am, as long as we don’t get too far away from her.”
“Good.” Honor glanced at her com officer, wondering if her question made her sound a prey to anxiety. And then she wondered if perhaps she sounded that way because she was. Metzinger was a good officer. She’d tell her if there were any problems. But with her own gravitic sensors down, Fearless could no longer receive FTL transmissions from the recon drones mounting guard against Thunder of God’s return. Her ship was as one-eyed as she was, and without Troubadour’s gravitics to do her seeing for her . . .

And as for the numbers of FTL RDs that were in use and being monitored by Troubadour because Fearless's gravitics were out:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 31 wrote:“What is it, Andy?”
“RD Niner-Three just picked up a hyper footprint at extreme range, Ma’am, right on the fifty light-minute mark.”
Honor felt the right side of her face turn as masklike as the left. A crack yawned in her serenity, but she schooled herself into calm. At that range, there was time.
“Details?”
“All we’ve got so far is the alert sequence. Troubadour’s standing by to relay the rest of the transmission as it comes in, but—" He paused as someone said something Honor couldn’t quite catch, then looked back at his captain. “Scratch that, Skipper. Commander McKeon says Niner-Two is coming in now, reporting a low-powered wedge moving across its range. Niner-Three has the same bogey and makes it right on the ecliptic. Looks like they’re heading around the primary to sneak up on Grayson from behind.”
Honor nodded while her mind raced. That kind of course meant it could only be the Masadans, but they knew Masada still had at least one other hyper-capable ship, so it wasn’t necessarily the battlecruiser either. And with Fearless’s gravitics down, she couldn’t read the drones’ FTL pulses direct, which meant she couldn’t send Troubadour out to check without losing her real-time link to her main tactical sensors.

And:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 32 wrote:“RD One-Seven reports another drone launch, Captain.”
“Projected course?”
“Like the others, Ma’am. They’re sweeping a sixty-degree cone in front of Saladin. There’s no sign of anything on their flanks.”
“Thank you, Carol.” Honor was already turning towards her com link and missed the ensign’s smile of pleasure at the use of her first name.
“You’re our resident expert,” she told the face on her small screen. “How likely are they to pick up the grav pulses?”
“Almost certain to, now that they’re inside our drone shell,” McKeon replied promptly, “but I doubt they’ll figure them out. Until Admiral Hemphill got involved, no one on our side thought it was possible, after all.”

***Snip***

“Sir! Sword Simonds!” Simonds whipped around at Lieutenant Ash’s excited cry. “Two impeller sources, Sir! They just popped up out of nowhere!”

***Snip to helm orders for Saladin***

“Come eighty degrees to starboard and increase acceleration to four hundred eighty gravities!”

***Snip***

Simonds caught himself dry-washing his hands in his lap and made himself stop. Thunder had held his new heading and acceleration for over seventy minutes while the Harlot’s handmaiden followed along in his wake, but Harrington was making no bid to overtake. She was letting Thunder make up velocity on her, despite the fact that her smaller ships had higher maximum acceleration rates, and that was more than merely ominous.
The range had opened to over twenty-four and a half light-minutes, yet Harrington knew exactly where they were. Thunder was able to see Fearless only through the drones Ash had deployed astern, but there was no sign of Manticoran drones. Unless Harrington’s sensors were even better than Yu had believed, she shouldn’t be able to see them at all, yet she’d adjusted to every course alteration he made! The implied technical superiority was as frightening as it was maddening, but the critical point was that he couldn’t lose her and come in undetected on a new vector . . . and she’d already pushed him clear beyond the asteroid belt, far outside Grayson’s orbit.
No wonder she was content to let him run! He’d wasted precious time trying to evade someone who could see every move he made, and by the time he killed his present velocity and came back into missile range—assuming she let him—over six hours would have passed since he’d first detected her.

The above quotes suggests that at least 93 FTL capable RDs were emplaced in the Yeltsin's Star system.

During the second missile engagement, Fearless lost her aft impeller ring (damaged control runs), her communication section was destroyed, and Troubadour was also destroyed, effectively blinding Fearless FTL (she still had light-speed sensors):

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 33 wrote:It was Fearless’s turn now.
Damage alarms screamed like tortured women as the first Masadan broadside lashed her, and Honor tore her mind away from the horror and pain of Troubadour’s death. She couldn’t think about that, couldn’t let herself be paralyzed by the friends who’d just died.
“Hotel-Eight, Helm!” she ordered, and her soprano voice was a stranger’s, untouched by anguish or self-hate.
“We’ve lost the control runs to the after ring, Skipper!” Commander Higgins reported from Damage Central. “We’re down to two-sixty gees!”
“Get those impellers back for me, James.”
“I’ll try, but we’re shot clean through at Frame Three-Twelve, Skipper. It’s going to take at least an hour just to run replacement cable.”
Fearless twisted again as a fresh laser gouged deep.
“Direct hit on the com section!” Lieutenant Metzinger’s voice was ugly with loss. “None of my people got out, Skipper. None of them!”

***Snip***

“Go to rapid fire on all tubes!”
Honor’s eye was locked on the com link to Troubadour, and the live side of her face was sick as she heard the tidal wave of damage reports washing over Alistair’s bridge. Ammunition or no, she had to draw Saladin’s fire from Troubadour before it was too-
The com link suddenly went dead, and her eye whipped to the visual display in horror as Troubadour’s back broke like a stick and the destroyer’s entire after third exploded like a sun.

Fearless's damage, in addition to the loss of Troubadour:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 34 wrote:Honor Harrington listened to the reports and forced the living side of her face to hide her desperation. Fearless’s communications section had been blotted away, rendering her deaf and dumb, but there was more than enough internal bad news.
A quarter of her crew was dead or wounded, and Commander Brentworth had found a job at last. The Grayson officer manned the damage control net from the bridge, releasing Lieutenant Allgood, Lieutenant Commander Higgins’ senior assistant, for other work, and Higgins needed him badly.
Fearless’s entire after impeller ring was down, and her starboard broadside was reduced to a single graser and eight missile tubes. Almost worse, the combination of damaged magazines and seven minutes of maximum-rate fire had reduced her to less than a hundred missiles, and her sensors had been savagely mauled. Half her main radar, both secondary fire control arrays, and two-thirds of her passive sensors were gone. She could still see her enemy, but her best acceleration was barely a third of Saladin’s until Higgins’ vac-suited engineers restored her after impeller ring (if they could), and even then, she’d lost so many nodes she’d be down to barely two-point-eight KPS2. If the battlecruiser’s captain guessed the truth, he could easily pull out and lose her. He’d already reopened the range to almost ninety-four million kilometers; if he opened it another two light-minutes, Honor wouldn’t even be able to find him, much less fight him, without Troubadour to relay from the recon drones.

Fearless is lamed, with fully blinded FTL and partially blinded light-speed sensors. Saladin was also severely damaged in terms of sensor capability, both gravitics (FTL) and normal sensors as a result of the two previous missile engagements with Honor's forces.

You will note that in all of the above quotes, the only limitation on the FTL RDs was transmission range (4 light hours) and data pulse rate (very slow using Morse code). No other limitation on the FTL RDs was given. And definitely no mention of insufficient numbers of FTL RDs available to Honor, even after the loss of Madrigal--lost before the FTL capability was revealed to the Graysons.

The only other limitation was that Fearless's gravitics were out, leaving her completely reliant on Troubadour for both direct FTL detection and reports from the FTL RDs.

And once Troubadour was destroyed, Fearless was completely without FTL detection and reception capability.

cthia wrote:I must add that I also got the impression that the platforms were limited in HotQ as well. During that lengthy battle IIRC, Honor ran out of the platforms. I think I recall her saying that she was down to her last one deployed. I remember thinking why so few are included on ship. I could be wrong about that. My point is that, all throughout the series the impression that these things didn't exactly grow on trees hung in the air.

Vince already nicely covered how Honor lost contact with the FTL recon drones during the fight; due to battle damage. But nothing says that those RDs were being lost (even though they have far less endurance than a perminant system platform)

What, IIRC, Honor did lose during the fight was her tethered/towed ECM decoys. Those are near the ship and deliberately being more attractive targets to missiles than the ship itself.

I apologize for my reaction, Cthia. I'm afraid that accusations or implications of lying are a trigger for me. I react badly when I feel impugned that way. I do know you didn't intend it. Saying that I was incorrect by omission and that "This reeks of a similar gist" to lying by omission was enough to set me off. I apologize.

cthia wrote:It appeared that you received that question as intended and proceeded to answer it -- which is my highlighting of your post, following. The statement that immediately follows was taken as a lane change. Granted, it did not begin a new paragraph and may have been incorrectly misconstrued by me. But it is as I read it.

And as I read it, it is incorrect. I supplied the incontrovertible textev. From the POV of Haven it is incorrect. And Haven's POV is also of paramount importance to the discussion.

I think this is where we two are crossing purposes. You didn't ask the question from the point of view of Haven. You asked why Minette was so important that Manticore put FTL comms in the system and Stanton decided to do a passing engagement even though it used up all his missiles and lost him some ships. You asked why Minette was important from the Manticore point of view, not Haven, so that's how I answered it.

If you had asked why the attack on Minette was important from Haven's perspective, then you are correct--Grayson would have to be mentioned. But Grayson had nothing to do with why Manticore put FTL comm in Minette and Stanton did a passing engagement. So I didn't mention Grayson. Grayson was irrelevant to the question you actually asked. It's obvious now that you had wanted to hear more about Haven's perspective as well, but that wasn't what you asked, and I had no way of knowing. I can only answer what you ask.

(Librarians have this problem all the time. )

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I must add that I also got the impression that the platforms were limited in HotQ as well. During that lengthy battle IIRC, Honor ran out of the platforms. I think I recall her saying that she was down to her last one deployed. I remember thinking why so few are included on ship. I could be wrong about that. My point is that, all throughout the series the impression that these things didn't exactly grow on trees hung in the air.

Vince already nicely covered how Honor lost contact with the FTL recon drones during the fight; due to battle damage. But nothing says that those RDs were being lost (even though they have far less endurance than a perminant system platform)

What, IIRC, Honor did lose during the fight was her tethered/towed ECM decoys. Those are near the ship and deliberately being more attractive targets to missiles than the ship itself.

Jonathan_S, I think you may be confusing the battles that Fearless fought.

CL Fearless fought against the Peep Q-ship Sirius in On Basilisk Station. In this book, we are explicitly shown CL Fearless deploying her tethered decoys and later losing a tethered decoy (and then replacing it with a spare--and mention is made of how many that CL Fearless has left):

On Basilisk Station, Chapter 30 wrote:Honor opened her mouth to snap orders, but Rafael Cardones had the reflexes of the very young. He had already reacted. The tactical board flashed as his ECM sprang from standby to active, and two fifty-ton decoys snapped out of their broadside bays, popping through specially opened portals in Fearless's sidewalls. Tractors moored them to the cruiser, holding the driveless lures on station to cover her flanks, as passive sensors listened to the incoming missiles, seeking the frequencies of their active homing systems, and jammers responded with white noise in an effort to blind them while fire control systems locked on the small, weaving targets.

***Snip***

The rate of closure was over seventy-seven thousand KPS, which didn't allow for a lot of accuracy from the fire control that could be squeezed into a warhead, especially not fire control dazzled by McKeon's ECM, but one of the beams picked off her port decoy. McKeon deployed another without orders or comment, but there was no need for comments. Fearless carried only three more decoys; when they were gone, her ECM's effectiveness would be more than halved, and she hadn't even gotten into range of her opponent yet.

While in The Honor of the Queen:

When CA Fearless, CL Apollo, and DD Troubadour fought against the Masadans, first against the ground base and then against the ships in the Battle of Blackbird, (implied) tethered ECM decoys are mentioned but not damaged or destroyed:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 23 wrote:“I frigging well knew it!” Commander Theisman spat.
His own sensors were blind from back here, but the base’s systems were now feeding Principality’s displays . . . for what it was worth. The tight wall of LACs had just spread, revealing the far stronger—and larger—impeller signatures behind it. It was Harrington . . . and she was just as good as ONI said she was, damn it! Even as he watched, her ships were sliding forward through the Grayson wall, spreading out into a classic anti-missile pattern and deploying decoys while the Graysons vanished behind them.

***Snip***

“Point Defense Three’s rejecting the master solution!” Cardones’ hands flew across his console. “Negative response override.”
Honor’s fists clenched as three missiles charged through a hole that shouldn’t have been there.
“Baker Two!” Cardones snapped, still fighting the malfunction lights.
“Aye, aye, Sir!” Ensign Wolcott’s contralto voice was tight, but her hands moved as rapidly as his. “Baker Two engaged!”
One of the missiles disappeared as Apollo responded to Wolcott’s commands and blew it away, but two more kept coming. Fearless’s computers had counted them as already destroyed before Point Defense Three put itself out of the circuit; now they were scrambling frantically to reprioritize their firing sequences, and Honor braced herself uselessly. It was going to be tight. If they didn’t stop them at least twenty-five thousand kilometers out-
Another missile died at twenty-seven thousand kilometers. The port decoy sucked the other off course, but it detonated six hundredths of a second later, fine off the port beam, and HMS Fearless bucked in agony.
Her port sidewall caught a dozen lasers, bending most of them clear of her hull, but two struck deep through the radiation shielding inside her wedge. The composite ceramic and alloys of her heavily armored battle steel hull resisted stubbornly, absorbing and deflecting energy that would have blown a Grayson-built ship’s titanium hull apart, but nothing could stop them entirely, and damage alarms screamed.
“Direct hits on Laser Two and Missile Four!” Honor slammed a fist into her chair arm. “Magazine Three open to space. Point Defense Two’s out of the loop, Skipper! Damage Control is on it, but we’ve got heavy casualties in Laser Two.”

No mention of the port decoy being damaged or lost.

When CA Fearless and DD Troubadour fought against Saladin aka Thunder of God during the first missile engagement in 2nd Yelsin, where (implied) tethered ECM decoys are mentioned:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 32 wrote:“Missile launch! Birds closing at four-one-seven KPS squared. Impact in one-seven-zero seconds—mark!”
“Fire Plan Able.” Honor said calmly. “Helm, initiate Foxtrot-Two.”
“Aye, aye, Ma’am. Fire Plan Able,” Cardones replied, and Chief Killian’s acknowledgment was right behind him.
Troubadour rolled, inverting herself relative to Fearless to bring her undamaged port broadside to bear, and both ships began a snake-like weave along their base course as their own missiles slashed away and the decoys and jammers deployed on Fearless’s flanks woke to electronic life.

***Snip***

Ensign Wolcott missed an incoming missile. The heavy warhead detonated fifteen thousand kilometers off Fearless’s starboard bow, and half a dozen savage rods of energy slammed at her sidewall. Two broke through, and the cruiser leapt in agony as plating shattered.
“Two hits forward! Laser Three and Five destroyed. Radar Five is gone, Ma’am. Heavy casualties in Laser Three!”
The right side of Honor Harrington’s mouth tightened, and her good eye narrowed.

Fearless was hit only once, and Troubadour was not hit at all.

And then the nearest I can find to the status of CA Fearless's own ECM systems (tethered ECM drones fall into this category) being destroyed or damaged, with (implied) tethered ECM decoys is when Saladin goes straight for Grayson and CA Fearless moves to intercept and is under fire from Saladin:

The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 34 wrote:The first missiles spewed out from Thunder of God, and Fearless’s crippled sensors couldn’t see them above a half million kilometers. That gave Rafe Cardones and Carolyn Wolcott barely seven seconds to engage them, far too brief a window to use counter missiles.
Their damaged jammers and decoys fought to blind and beguile the incoming fire, and they’d learned even more about Thunder’s offensive fire control than Lieutenant Ash had learned about theirs. Three-quarters of the first broadside lost lock and veered away, and computer-commanded laser clusters quivered like questing hounds, pitting their minimal prediction time against the surviving laser heads’ acquisition time.
Rods of coherent light picked off targets with desperate speed, but Fearless couldn’t possibly stop them all, and she didn’t. Most of those which got through wasted their fury against her impenetrable belly band, but a few raced across “above” and “below” her to attack her sidewalls. Damage alarms wailed again, men and women died, weapons were wiped away, but the cruiser shook off the damage and kept closing, and there was only silence on her bridge. Honor Harrington sat immovable in her command chair, shoulders squared, like an eye of calm at the heart of that silence, and watched her plot.
Seven more minutes to intercept.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis in all quoted text from the books.

I deliberately emphasized the CA and CL designations in this post, because CL Fearless was a Courageous-class light cruiser of only 88,250 tons, while CA Fearless was a Star Kinght-class heavy cruiser of 305,250 tons. And the Star Knights had additionally increased the defensive capabilities of the ships, compared to their predecessors, the Prince Consorts-class heavy cruiser of 246,500 tons as well as adding 58,750 more tons.

CA Fearless has an advantage in tonnage alone almost 3.5 times that of CL Fearless. Combined with the additional emphasis on defensive systems (compared to the norm for RMN heavy cruisers), the heavy cruiser most likely carries more capable tethered decoys, and more of them compared to the light cruiser.

Tonnage numbers for ship classes are from House of Steel.

Vince wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:What, IIRC, Honor did lose during the fight was her tethered/towed ECM decoys. Those are near the ship and deliberately being more attractive targets to missiles than the ship itself.

Jonathan_S, I think you may be confusing the battles that Fearless fought.

yep, seems I misremembered which Fearless was shown to lose ECM decoys
Happens when I post without easy access to my reference ebooks to diuble-check

Thanks for correcting that.