Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

cthia wrote:Alfredo Yu allowing so many armed Masadans on his battleship was a grievous tactical blunder.

It's like allowing someone's rooks to occupy the eighth row.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:
Alfredo Yu allowing so many armed Masadans on his battleship was a grievous tactical blunder.

It's like allowing someone's rooks to occupy the eighth row.

Do you suppose he had options that way, consistent with his orders and mission? Also, much as we hate to credit Masadans for anything, if he had his foot nailed to the floor by his situation and orders, and Masada had more intelligence penetration on Haven's people on Masada than Haven suspected and made their play with skill, then there's little to no shame in falling victim to it. Sometimes, when the other guy has skill and luck and you're in a bad position, you don't have to make mistakes or lack skill to lose.

cthia wrote:I don't mean to belittle your fine point.

But.

"I don't believe in a no option scenario. There are always options." - Loosely paraphrasing one James Tiberius Kirk. USS Enterprise, UFP.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't mean to belittle your fine point.

But.

"I don't believe in a no option scenario. There are always options." - Loosely paraphrasing one James Tiberius Kirk. USS Enterprise, UFP.

But even Kirk sacrified his beloved original Enterprise in ST3. Sometimes even legendary captains lose their ships.

cthia wrote:

roseandheather wrote:I'm in your camp, actually. I do love Honor, a lot, but she's not going to make any of my "top ten favorite Honorverse characters" lists. There's no doubt she's the best tactician of her generation and very good at strategy, but there are better strategists in the novels - Esther McQueen, Hamish Alexander, Tom Theisman, Sebastian D'Orville, Theodosia Kuzak, James Webster, and Tom Caparelli, just to name a handful. I'd even throw Augustus Khumalo in there, at least for strategic and not tactical thinking - remember, he made absolutely the right call to leave only a light picket at the Lynx terminus before Monica, though nobody knew it at the time. And that's not even counting Sonja Hemphill, who basically breaks 'strategy' over her knee and rebuilds it to suit her on a regular basis.

Honor's an amazing series anchor, but that doesn't mean she's automatically the best at everything, and I like it much better that way.

Honor isn't on your top ten favorite characters list? I must say Rose, that leaves my mouth agape . And makes me full of wonderment of all the books you've inhaled that I haven't. Jealousy, pure jealousy it is!

Because of all the books I've read, Honor makes a heckuva bid for the top five character spot. And if you give me the female stare and rubber neck, I'd surely bump her to top three. When I'm actually sitting down with a freshly minted copy of a new release about to attack, she's my favorite!

But then, I personally have always gone weak-kneed for the strong female character role. I'm like a baby with a pacifier. And you can't get much stronger than Honor - with the exception of little Sara Crewe from A Little Princess.

cthia wrote:

roseandheather wrote:I'm in your camp, actually. I do love Honor, a lot, but she's not going to make any of my "top ten favorite Honorverse characters" lists. There's no doubt she's the best tactician of her generation and very good at strategy, but there are better strategists in the novels - Esther McQueen, Hamish Alexander, Tom Theisman, Sebastian D'Orville, Theodosia Kuzak, James Webster, and Tom Caparelli, just to name a handful. I'd even throw Augustus Khumalo in there, at least for strategic and not tactical thinking - remember, he made absolutely the right call to leave only a light picket at the Lynx terminus before Monica, though nobody knew it at the time. And that's not even counting Sonja Hemphill, who basically breaks 'strategy' over her knee and rebuilds it to suit her on a regular basis.

Honor's an amazing series anchor, but that doesn't mean she's automatically the best at everything, and I like it much better that way.

Honor isn't on your top ten favorite characters list? I must say Rose, that leaves my mouth agape . And makes me full of wonderment of all the books you've inhaled that I haven't. Jealousy, pure jealousy it is!

Because of all the books I've read, Honor makes a heckuva bid for the top five character spot. And if you give me the female stare and rubber neck, I'd surely bump her to top three. When I'm actually sitting down with a freshly minted copy of a new release about to attack, she's my favorite!

But then, I personally have always gone weak-kneed for the strong female character role. I'm like a baby with a pacifier. And you can't get much stronger than Honor - with the exception of little Sara Crewe from A Little Princess.

roseandheather wrote:I will admit that, when she is actively on the page, Honor makes a heckuva bid for my favorite, too.

Top 10 Honorverse Characters (as of right now):

10. Wesley Matthews
9. Mark Sarnow
8. Sonja Hemphill
7. Abigail Hearns
6. Michael Oversteegen
5. Estelle Matsuko
4. Michelle Henke
3. Thomas Theisman
2. Augustus Khumalo
1. Eloise Pritchart

...yeah, not even close to the top.

I love her, I honestly do, but there are just so many other characters who speak to me on a deeper level than she ever could.

"All right," Honor said after a moment. "I agree that we've got to be able to face one opponent at a time. I don't think anyone in this room, or anyone in the entire Navy, wants to fight the Sollies. Not if they have even the faintest conception of just how big, how powerful, the League is, anyway. I don't care what any of us said about potential Solarian weaknesses, or possible political strategies or opportunities. The truth is that none of us can know if any of that analysis was truly accurate, and only a lunatic would willingly risk the very survival of her star nation on possibilities if she had any other option at all!

"But, having said that, I think we have to position ourselves to fight the SLN, whether we want to or not. And that means reaching some sort of settlement, whether it's diplomatic or military, with the Havenites first. I've never disagreed with you there. But I think that rather than blowing still more of their ships out of space, and rather than destroying still more of their infrastructure, we ought to tell them we think it's time to talk. Hamish is right about the timing if we decide to launch what amounts to a preemptive strike, but remember what Pritchard did when she had the advantage because of what was happening in Talbott. She didn't shoot first, she offered to talk, and I genuinely believe she's telling the truth when she says she didn't set out to derail the summit.

"So I think it's time we show Haven we can forego an advantage in the interests of peace, as well. We defeated them decisively here in Manticore, despite our own losses, and they know it. By now, they know we could destroy the Haven System any time we chose to, as well. So I suggest that we hold Eighth Fleet right here, close to home, in case we do end up needing it in Talbott. Instead of sending me to Nouveau Paris to hold a pistol to their heads and make them sign on the dotted line, send an accredited diplomat, instead. Someone who can tell them that we know we can destroy them, too, and that we're prepared to do it if we have to, but that we don't want to unless we have to. Give them the option and let them have a little time to think, a little time to approach the decision with dignity, Elizabeth, not just because they're lying face down in the dirt with the muzzle of a gun screwed into the backs of their necks. Give them the chance to surrender on some sort of reasonable terms before I have to go out and kill thousands of more people who might not have to die at all."

cthia wrote:Storm from the Shadows

"All right," Honor said after a moment. "I agree that we've got to be able to face one opponent at a time. I don't think anyone in this room, or anyone in the entire Navy, wants to fight the Sollies. Not if they have even the faintest conception of just how big, how powerful, the League is, anyway. I don't care what any of us said about potential Solarian weaknesses, or possible political strategies or opportunities. The truth is that none of us can know if any of that analysis was truly accurate, and only a lunatic would willingly risk the very survival of her star nation on possibilities if she had any other option at all!

"But, having said that, I think we have to position ourselves to fight the SLN, whether we want to or not. And that means reaching some sort of settlement, whether it's diplomatic or military, with the Havenites first. I've never disagreed with you there. But I think that rather than blowing still more of their ships out of space, and rather than destroying still more of their infrastructure, we ought to tell them we think it's time to talk. Hamish is right about the timing if we decide to launch what amounts to a preemptive strike, but remember what Pritchard did when she had the advantage because of what was happening in Talbott. She didn't shoot first, she offered to talk, and I genuinely believe she's telling the truth when she says she didn't set out to derail the summit.

"So I think it's time we show Haven we can forego an advantage in the interests of peace, as well. We defeated them decisively here in Manticore, despite our own losses, and they know it. By now, they know we could destroy the Haven System any time we chose to, as well. So I suggest that we hold Eighth Fleet right here, close to home, in case we do end up needing it in Talbott. Instead of sending me to Nouveau Paris to hold a pistol to their heads and make them sign on the dotted line, send an accredited diplomat, instead. Someone who can tell them that we know we can destroy them, too, and that we're prepared to do it if we have to, but that we don't want to unless we have to. Give them the option and let them have a little time to think, a little time to approach the decision with dignity, Elizabeth, not just because they're lying face down in the dirt with the muzzle of a gun screwed into the backs of their necks. Give them the chance to surrender on some sort of reasonable terms before I have to go out and kill thousands of more people who might not have to die at all."

And there shall be NO more mention of Honor lacking strategic genius. Even if you could argue that it was simply the threat of death that focused her thoughts - and even if those thoughts of death was not of her own people.

I also took the literary liberty to highlight a very profound and humorous one-liner.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:Alfredo Yu allowing so many armed Masadans on his battleship was a grievous tactical blunder.

It's like allowing someone's rooks to occupy the eighth row.

Do you suppose he had options that way, consistent with his orders and mission? Also, much as we hate to credit Masadans for anything, if he had his foot nailed to the floor by his situation and orders, and Masada had more intelligence penetration on Haven's people on Masada than Haven suspected and made their play with skill, then there's little to no shame in falling victim to it. Sometimes, when the other guy has skill and luck and you're in a bad position, you don't have to make mistakes or lack skill to lose.

Starsaber wrote:Another definition problem is whether they're talking about tacticians in terms of handling an individual ship or a fleet. Someone who is good at one might not be good at the other.