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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:23 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:What ship classes are more pressing to come out of Bolthole?
Honestly, based on the fact that we haven't seen any real improvements in Havenite escorts (except for fitting bow/stern walls) they are probably most in need of overhaul/replacement.

A Havenite BC probably has a noticeable but not crushing edge on a SLN BC equipped with SDMs, and is outranged by one carrying Cataphracts. Whereas a Havenite SD(P), carrying Havenite capacitor powered MDMs, can easily crush multiple SLN SDs.


But I think it's more work to transfer and integrate the tech necessary for radically newer escorts than the hybrid-build approach that was proposed for Bolthole SD(P)s -- where Haven initially builds the hulls and guts using their normal tech, then integrates tac systems and missiles from Beowulf that add the Keyhole II and Apollo capabilities. So it sounds like Haven (and Beowulf) are going to initially focus on rolling out top of the line SD(P)s; even though that's where Haven is currently least deficient.

Would it be too terribly challenging to knock out something very like a Saganami-C - a very large heavy cruiser with broadside missile launchers to fire Mk 16 DDM's? Even if the components aren't quite as miniaturized as built-in-Manticore ones, or if the systems demand a somewhat larger crew with somewhat less developed technical skills?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:44 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:Would it be too terribly challenging to knock out something very like a Saganami-C - a very large heavy cruiser with broadside missile launchers to fire Mk 16 DDM's? Even if the components aren't quite as miniaturized as built-in-Manticore ones, or if the systems demand a somewhat larger crew with somewhat less developed technical skills?


The Mars class should see a substantial boost once Bolthole gets hold of Manticoran/Grayson tech. It's also only about 10,000 tons heavier than a Sag-C and so is the likeliest template, unless they start from scratch.

It'll be a very odd experience for Terekhov if he encounters a hybrid Mars/Sag-C.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:49 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:Would it be too terribly challenging to knock out something very like a Saganami-C - a very large heavy cruiser with broadside missile launchers to fire Mk 16 DDM's? Even if the components aren't quite as miniaturized as built-in-Manticore ones, or if the systems demand a somewhat larger crew with somewhat less developed technical skills?
Assuming you got Beowulf to make the Mk16s (at least initially), and Ghost Rider drones, that lets Haven off the hook of immediately coming up to speed on microfusion plant production...

They might not be able to reproduce the Beta squared nodes, or the two-stage bow/stern wall. But missile tubes capable of handling Mk16s, plus full bow/stern walls, on a somewhat larger hull with higher manning doesn't seem impossible...
Might not be able to go toe-to-toe with a Sag-C; but if they pull it off should be more than capable of standing off and crushing many of the current SLN ships.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Fri May 01, 2015 2:50 pm

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cthia wrote:Cardones trick of using Saladin's ECM was genius. But if I'm understanding it correctly, that shouldn't have been possible. Wouldn't have been possible if Saladin had an experienced crew and ECM had not been functioning under computer control. I think ECM frequencies would have been constantly changing - modulating? Exactly what would have been going on with Saladin's ECM if it hadn't been operating in a canned mode?

Yes, they were constantly changing. The problem was that the computer-controlled mode was limited. It created a long complicated variation in frequency modulation, and then cycled it. The cycle was long (it might have been an hour or more, given the length of the battle), but it did cycle. It was never intended to be used the way the Masadan crew did. It was intended to give a base modulation which could then be constantly tweaked by trained specialists to prevent what Rafe did. The specialists would turn it into a completely unpredictable modulation.

Once Rafe recognized that there was a repeated cycle in the pattern, he could program the missiles to predict the pattern, to adjust sensors in the same pattern to improve their own lock, and to even predict what penaids settings would get the missiles through the sidewalls, which were also cycling in the same pattern.

Something I've always wanted to know. Why can't nukes get through? If it's the size, then Honorverse tech can't engineer them so that they aren't any larger than laserheads?

Because of the sidewalls. Sidewalls will normally rip apart any material object passing through them. Sidewalls ripple and modulate in a pattern intended to be unpredictable to the enemy but predictable to the ship itself, so that the ship sensors and weapons can get out but enemy shots can't get in.

So-called contact nukes are equipped with penaids--penetration aids. They are intended to counter the effects of the sidewall, creating a hole for the missile to slip through, so that the warhead can go off between the sidewalls, close enough to the ship to damage it. That what missiles had to do before laserheads were invented. But sidewalls developed to the point that it was nearly impossible for missile penaids to succeed. Penaids had to have the right modulation, and the sidewalls were varying too unpredictably. That's why graser combat was the norm until laserheads let missiles cause damage from well away from the ship.

It is not fully explained, but it is likely that one reason updates to missiles are so important is that the ship computers are constantly monitoring the enemy ECM (which includes the sidewalls), trying to look for hidden patterns, trying to predict what the ECM will do in the next ten seconds. All those predictions go out to the missiles, to give them as much advantage as possible in defeating the enemy ECM and causing as much damage as possible.

The Thunder of God, using canned ECM routines, was cycling ECM in a repeated pattern. Once Rafe knew the pattern, he could program the penaids of the contact nukes to adjust for the already known sidewall modulation pattern.

Think of Papillon, stuck on Devil's Island, trying to escape. The waves would normally dash anyone jumping off the cliff into the rocks. But studying the pattern, he was able to jump at the right point--every seventh wave was a little bigger than the others. He escaped to the mainland. :)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Fri May 01, 2015 2:54 pm

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Kind of. It's not so much that sidewalls got improved, it was that you couldn't get a missile that close due to improved point defenses.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Fri May 01, 2015 3:28 pm

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kzt wrote:Kind of. It's not so much that sidewalls got improved, it was that you couldn't get a missile that close due to improved point defenses.

I'm not sure that's a complete explanation, because the point defenses shouldn't run on a cycle, even in canned mode, like the ECM does. I think there must have been improvement in the speed and granularity of modulation in sidewalls over the years, which helped make contact nukes useless in combination with the improved point defenses. Penaids were developed in response to the invention of sidewalls, so clearly they used to think they could get some missiles through the sidewalls. Yet Honor was shocked that Rafe was able to get any missile through the sidewall, implying that things had changed. It just doesn't feel like that shock is explained solely by improved point defenses, because Rafe still had to get through those point defenses, which were still just as effective (if not more effective) than they were at the beginning of the battle. That's just my own feeling, though, I don't have anything solid to go on.

But you're definitely correct that improved point defenses was a major factor in the historical changes to tactical warfare.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri May 01, 2015 3:34 pm

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kzt wrote:Kind of. It's not so much that sidewalls got improved, it was that you couldn't get a missile that close due to improved point defenses.

Thanks for the explanation SWM and others. I actually understand it much better now.

The Papillon analogy is cool. :)

The reason I erroneously thought it had something to do with size - and I was also in error that the missiles carrying the nukes were much larger - was because Cardones programmed three lead missiles to fly abnormally close to each other in formation to specifically "hide" the nukes. I thought that implied that they were bulkier and that CMs and point defense would have a field day after an easy lock-on.

As kzt has opined.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 01, 2015 4:36 pm

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SWM wrote:I'm not sure that's a complete explanation, because the point defenses shouldn't run on a cycle, even in canned mode, like the ECM does. I think there must have been improvement in the speed and granularity of modulation in sidewalls over the years, which helped make contact nukes useless in combination with the improved point defenses. Penaids were developed in response to the invention of sidewalls, so clearly they used to think they could get some missiles through the sidewalls. Yet Honor was shocked that Rafe was able to get any missile through the sidewall, implying that things had changed. It just doesn't feel like that shock is explained solely by improved point defenses, because Rafe still had to get through those point defenses, which were still just as effective (if not more effective) than they were at the beginning of the battle. That's just my own feeling, though, I don't have anything solid to go on.

But you're definitely correct that improved point defenses was a major factor in the historical changes to tactical warfare.

The Intro to Starship Armor Design essay in In Fire Forged (which gives an overview of advances in weapons and point defense, as well as armor) is pretty clear that it was improved point defense (after the invention of the impeller powered CM, and laser point defense weapons) that make contact nukes hit very improbable. (After 1701 PD)

In Fire Forged wrote:The point defense laser cluster created the final layer of light speed defense that resulted in the now familiar geometrically increased chance of the missile being destroyed in the last 50,000 to 60,000 km of its run. Hits against intact defenses became rare.


Prior to that there was a separate tech race between improved sidewalls and improved sidewall perpetrators; but it seemed to me that improved sidewalls never achieve a significant or long term edge in this race. But if improved defenses means you basically never get close enough to activate your perpetrators then that race largely becomes moot.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 03, 2015 9:19 am

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wikia wrote:Neophyte-class was the official Grayson name for two Havenite Frigate-class light cruisers that were captured by Commodore Honor Harrington's forces during the escape from the prison planet Hades and later bought into the service of the Grayson Space Navy.
The two vessels served in the Protector's Own for a short time, but were soon replaced by David-class units. After a brief service as training vessels, they were decommissioned, and their gutted hulks were used for target practice. (Companion)

Hey, I recommended this beginning with post #3 of the "Captured Solly Fleet" thread. And that was before today, when I came upon this lead-in post. The more I thought about it the more I considered target practice to be an apropos utilitarian vector. And let's face it, the thread did afford all of us plenty of time to reflect.

Seems the Graysons were ahead again.

Anyways, anyone holding the missive of "guns" could greatly benefit from the opportunity to adjust one's gunsights to a more appropriate target - while the rolling, twisting, maneuvering, evading and turning of both ship and enemy target occurs, as textev bears excellent witness to its importance...
HotQ Ch. 34 wrote:"We should be able to run a fair plot on Saladin with our belly radar, Rafe, but tracking missiles through the grav band will be difficult."

Cardones nodded, and his face was very still. Honor saw the understanding in his eyes, but she had to say it.

"I intend to hold the belly of our wedge towards her all the way in. We don't have the ammunition to stop her with missiles, so we're going to close to pointblank range unless she shears off. Set up your fire plan on the assumption that I will roll to bring our port energy broadside to bear at twenty thousand kilometers."

Cardones simply nodded once more, but someone hissed. That wasn't energy weapon range; it was suicide range.

"She won't know exactly when we intend to roll," Honor went on in that same, calm voice. "That should give us the first shot, and at that range, it won't matter how tough her sidewalls are." She held Cardones' gaze with her single eye and spoke very softly. "I'm depending on you, Rafe. Get that first broadside on target, then keep firing, whatever happens."

* * *

Matthew Simonds' grin was ugly as his ship accelerated towards Grayson. There were no fancy maneuvers for the bitch now. Harrington was still inside him, still able to intercept, but this time it would be on his terms, not hers, and he watched her projected vector stretch out to cross his own. They met 152 million kilometers short of the planet, but Fearless would never survive to reach that point.

* * *

"Andy."

"Yes, Ma'am?"

"Go aft to Auxiliary Fire Control. Take Harris with you, and make sure he's completely updated on Rafe's fire plan."

Venizelos' mouth tightened, but he nodded.

"Understood, Skipper." He hesitated a moment, then held out his hand. Honor squeezed it firmly, and he nodded once more and stepped into the lift.

So I say again, there's a real need to practice while rolling, twisting and turning with this Solly shit. It does have a use. It can sharpen the sword and fine tune the sights of any officer talented enough to be called "guns."

And shooting at asteroids has to get old after awhile. And it doesn't exactly hold water as a motivating factor as much as placing a quick accurate shot on a vulnerable target area with a face such as "Solly bastard."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5494&start=998

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun May 03, 2015 10:33 am

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I never asked this question, but I've always wondered about it. Well, I did touch on it once. We've been on a few death rides with our, well my, favorite heroine. To be victorious was the most important thing for Honor on several occasions - her life was secondary.

But she never considered kamikrazying her ship. Why? Now I know against the Q-ship Sirius it wasn't an option. IIRC, she needed to survive the encounter to get that data to the Star Empire regarding the incident. But the option was on the table against Saladin. And that confrontation was a life or death encounter. Many lives and deaths. Graysons. So I wonder why she never considered it. Akin to Picard kamikrazying the Enterprise...
Captain Picard ordered the USS Enterprise-E into a collision course with Shinzon's Scimitar after conventional ...

My question is whether Fearless crashing into Saladin would have been enough to destroy her?

Trek reference:
https://youtu.be/fMFQgwMktT0

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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