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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by drothgery   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:53 pm

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SWM wrote:If Haven didn't buy from the Sollies, who would they buy from? Solarian ships were the best they could buy, and was still considered the standard to beat. They were far better than Haven's own stuff until they started catching up to Manticore.
I'd note here that Haven didn't buy ships, or even complete plans for ships (or even complete plans for missiles), from the Sollies. They bought component designs. They might have if they could, but smuggling entire complete warships (at least in any significant numbers) to Haven despite the tech embargo Manticore forced through would have been somewhat difficult.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:23 pm

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drothgery wrote:
SWM wrote:If Haven didn't buy from the Sollies, who would they buy from? Solarian ships were the best they could buy, and was still considered the standard to beat. They were far better than Haven's own stuff until they started catching up to Manticore.
I'd note here that Haven didn't buy ships, or even complete plans for ships (or even complete plans for missiles), from the Sollies. They bought component designs. They might have if they could, but smuggling entire complete warships (at least in any significant numbers) to Haven despite the tech embargo Manticore forced through would have been somewhat difficult.

There it is!

The reason behind my initial shock when I read that Haven had purchased entire ships. I was under the impression that only plans were purchased and that the actual ship building was accomplished by Haven. They always had their own yards. Right?

Also, another reason that I thought only plans were bought, was because of the underlying differences that would occur from two different tech bases and the inherent problems of marrying two different techs. Something mentioned throughout the series.

It came as a shock to me to learn that Haven didn't always build all of their own ships.

It raises other questions. Such as, is the point that Haven began to shorten the tech gap in the Haven sector when they begat their own designs - even if it was a work in progress from all they've ever learned from the SLN?

And the fact that Haven was so far outclassed using SLN ships should have been a wakeup to the League.

If the US sold fighters to other countries and they were getting schooled, then wouldn't that cause the US to at least go hmmm?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:46 pm

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cthia wrote:
The reason behind my initial shock when I read that Haven had purchased entire ships. I was under the impression that only plans were purchased and that the actual ship building was accomplished by Haven. They always had their own yards. Right?
Probably not always, but for a very long time. I forget, what time range are we talking about here?

If it can be trusted, the Honorverse Wiki has it that there were sales of three obsolete, stripped-down, mothballed Liberty CL's to Haven in 1872, for the chance to get Solarian tech out of what remained. That doesn't serve to get them out of building with their own yards; it's an attempted tech transfer that's at least superficially above-board. And probably disappointing at that: by 1872, old SLN designs would be pre-laserhead in the laserhead era.
Also, another reason that I thought only plans were bought, was because of the underlying differences that would occur from two different tech bases and the inherent problems of marrying two different techs. Something mentioned throughout the series.

It came as a shock to me to learn that Haven didn't always build all of their own ships.
Anybody with ambitions and cash beyond local technical expertise will. Haven's certainly been long on ambition and so-so on technical expertise for a couple centuries. Cash per capita has been low, but absolute cash, as a large star nation (by any standard but comparison to the League) is still plentiful.
It raises other questions. Such as, is the point that Haven began to shorten the tech gap in the Haven sector when they begat their own designs - even if it was a work in progress from all they've ever learned from the SLN?
Early in the First Havenite War, I believe. The general Solarian tech base is, was, and has been well ahead of the Republic's - or Manticore's, overall. The warfighting tech level has been woefully obsolete, because the SLN hasn't had to fight a peer ever, the tech required has gone from a centuries-long plateau up an accelerating curve in the last 50 years, and Haven and Manticore have had relentless practical experience in what needs to be deployed how quite apart from theoretical standards. By 1905ish, Haven could do more with "worse" technology than the SLN could; by 1922, it's got better technology period for warships than the SLN does. (Although the Solarian bathroom facilities may be more advanced. Far more advanced even! This is unlikely to win a war, however.)

And the fact that Haven was so far outclassed using SLN ships should have been a wakeup to the League.

If the US sold fighters to other countries and they were getting schooled, then wouldn't that cause the US to at least go hmmm?

Two factors at work. One, Solarians figure Havenites with Solarian tech can expect results a lot like Attila the Hun given 2015 U.S. military hardware. Getting spanked by some other Iron Age culture doesn't mean much about the hardware. Two, that assumes they're even paying attention. They're not, any more than the typical reasonably informed citizen of the U.S. is following any current civil war in some part of Africa very few high school students could find on a map. That's what impact the Haven Sector has on the Solarian consciousness.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by saber964   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:02 pm

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Hutch wrote:
SWM wrote:At the beginning of the first war, not even Manticore realized that their ship designs were actually better than Solarian. Solarian tech was still considered the best in the galaxy, and everyone else was trying to catch up. Manticoran technology was comparable to Solarian technology at the beginning of the war, and even that was not fully realized by anyone until much later. Manticoran designs had surpassed Solarian designs, but that was not obvious until the designs were tested in battle. Even then, it was difficult to compare with Solarian designs because so few Solarian ships entered battle in the new threat environment of the Haven Quadrant.


Quite so. The first real tests (in battle) were Monica, where Therekov scratch force led by 2CA's defeated 3 BC's (albeit crewed by Monicans, not Sollies) and Tiberian, where Oversteengen beat four SLN CA's with one RMN CA (again, the crews were Silesians, not ISLN personnel)

And the Sollies would have ignored these since "obviously those neobarbs didn't use our invincible ships properly, and if proper ISLN crews had been there, it would have very different."

The Manties, however, learned a lot and the lesson was proven by Gold Peak at New Tuscany and Spindle.

If Haven didn't buy from the Sollies, who would they buy from? Solarian ships were the best they could buy, and was still considered the standard to beat. They were far better than Haven's own stuff until they started catching up to Manticore.


No argument. And given the tech in the SL, they could still be the best....if they had paid attention and concentrated the R&D on substantial changes.

But that would have required real leadership and the ability to ruthlessly force people to confront facts...and in the ISLN, that force was lacking (in a way, you can't blame them...nothing amounting to a real conflict for several centuries would dull the edge off of any military).


Not quite, at Monica the RMN forces consisted of 3 CA's 3 CL's and 4 DDs vs 3 BCs.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Hutch   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:54 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Hutch wrote: Quite so. The first real tests (in battle) were Monica, where Therekov scratch force led by 2CA's defeated 3 BC's (albeit crewed by Monicans, not Sollies) and Tiberian, where Oversteengen beat four SLN CA's with one RMN CA (again, the crews were Silesians, not ISLN personnel)


saber964 wrote:Not quite, at Monica the RMN forces consisted of 3 CA's 3 CL's and 4 DDs vs 3 BCs.


Quite right, I forgot Vigilant was CA. Still, 3CA's, 3 CL's and 4 DD's should not have been a match for 3 BC's (in Solarian thinking), so it was obviously due to poor shiphandling by those neo-barb Monicians, not anything like longer-range and more accurate missiles, nope, nope, nope...
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by saber964   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:10 pm

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Hutch wrote:
saber964" quote="Hutch wrote: Quite so. The first real tests (in battle) were Monica, where Therekov scratch force led by 2CA's defeated 3 BC's (albeit crewed by Monicans, not Sollies) and Tiberian, where Oversteengen beat four SLN CA's with one RMN CA (again, the crews were Silesians, not ISLN personnel)


saber964 wrote:Not quite, at Monica the RMN forces consisted of 3 CA's 3 CL's and 4 DDs vs 3 BCs.


Quite right, I forgot Vigilant was CA. Still, 3CA's, 3 CL's and 4 DD's should not have been a match for 3 BC's (in Solarian thinking), so it was obviously due to poor shiphandling by those neo-barb Monicians, not anything like longer-range and more accurate missiles, nope, nope, nope...[/quote]


Something similar happened in the RW. Look at the First Battle of Guadalcanal. The USN sent 2 CA 3 CL and 8 DD vs 2 BB 1 CL and 12-15 DD into a shoot out in a phone booth.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:47 pm

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Hutch wrote:Quite right, I forgot Vigilant was CA. Still, 3CA's, 3 CL's and 4 DD's should not have been a match for 3 BC's (in Solarian thinking), so it was obviously due to poor shiphandling by those neo-barb Monicians, not anything like longer-range and more accurate missiles, nope, nope, nope...


Is that the OOB the RMN entered the system with, or the survivors after being savaged by the Technodyne system defense missiles in the first engagement?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:58 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Hutch wrote:Quite right, I forgot Vigilant was CA. Still, 3CA's, 3 CL's and 4 DD's should not have been a match for 3 BC's (in Solarian thinking), so it was obviously due to poor shiphandling by those neo-barb Monicians, not anything like longer-range and more accurate missiles, nope, nope, nope...


Is that the OOB the RMN entered the system with, or the survivors after being savaged by the Technodyne system defense missiles in the first engagement?


It's what they had. Their casualties were 1 CA, 2 CL and 3 DD, with considerable damage to the survivors.

They also had HMS Volcano, an ammunition ship.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by n7axw   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:01 pm

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First a nit... maybe, because I'm not completely sure of my assertion here. So I could stand to be corrected. My impression is not that the Peeps were not buying Solarian warships; they were buying Solly tech to incorporate into their own designs. The turning point on this came when Erewhon became a Haven ally as a result of which Haven got that Manticoran tech which Erewhon was in possession of at the time, after which Haven's stuff became more advanced than the League...

Secondly, I've been thinking about Technodyne. In the past it has provided a major percent of the SLN's hardware...

and yet,

it's major facility is in a system not under League jurisdiction. It has representation on Mesa's board...

The whole notion of relying on a major defense contractor in such an ambiguous set of arrangements strikes me as being so weird that my head is starting to spin...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by stewart   » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:02 pm

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n7axw wrote:First a nit... maybe, because I'm not completely sure of my assertion here. So I could stand to be corrected. My impression is not that the Peeps were not buying Solarian warships; they were buying Solly tech to incorporate into their own designs. The turning point on this came when Erewhon became a Haven ally as a result of which Haven got that Manticoran tech which Erewhon was in possession of at the time, after which Haven's stuff became more advanced than the League...

Secondly, I've been thinking about Technodyne. In the past it has provided a major percent of the SLN's hardware...

and yet,

it's major facility is in a system not under League jurisdiction. It has representation on Mesa's board...

The whole notion of relying on a major defense contractor in such an ambiguous set of arrangements strikes me as being so weird that my head is starting to spin...

Don


-------------

Don --
Hence the USA Government requirement of defense contractors to be US corporations. Fabrique Nationale of Belgium has a US corporation FN USA, as does Baretta for US military sales.
Israel (with experience on the receiving end of embargos) set up a similar practice (IAI etc) so that at least some of their sources would be in-country)

-- Stewart
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