Honorverse ramblings and musings

I recall that Honor (or RFC) giving some background about dealing with pirates while Honor is in Silesia.
It appeared that the RMN had been having problems with turning pirates (captured in the act or with evidence of having committed piracy) over to any number of local governments- along with the ships captured- only to find that the majority of them would vanish into the paperwork of bureaucracy or, worse, get captured again doing or with evidence of the same thing on another ship. The captured pirate ships also seemed to show up back in pirate service.
All of this lead to ANYBODY getting picked up and then turned over to a government for trail as pirate or similar crime went onto a list that was constantly updated and shared -at least within the RMN if not also with the Silesian Cofed government and independt systems. If a person on the list was caught a 2nd time by a RMN ship, they went out the airlock. Period.

It was up to the Captain of any given ship to conduct dealings with pirates within the regulations and one option was to turn them over to the nearest planetary (or I presume ConFed government as appropriate). My guess would be that if a RMN ship had to get into a shooting match with another vessel susptected of piracey or caught a ship in the act, they would possibly defalut to just spacing the survivors- after a military trial and questioning. I can't imagine that many of the RMN, having once observed some of the horror we were treated to in the stories/descriptions of what pirates were doing to crews, would let the perpetrators out of it alive.

Brigade XO wrote:I recall that Honor (or RFC) giving some background about dealing with pirates while Honor is in Silesia.
It appeared that the RMN had been having problems with turning pirates (captured in the act or with evidence of having committed piracy) over to any number of local governments- along with the ships captured- only to find that the majority of them would vanish into the paperwork of bureaucracy or, worse, get captured again doing or with evidence of the same thing on another ship. The captured pirate ships also seemed to show up back in pirate service.
All of this lead to ANYBODY getting picked up and then turned over to a government for trail as pirate or similar crime went onto a list that was constantly updated and shared -at least within the RMN if not also with the Silesian Cofed government and independt systems. If a person on the list was caught a 2nd time by a RMN ship, they went out the airlock. Period.

It was up to the Captain of any given ship to conduct dealings with pirates within the regulations and one option was to turn them over to the nearest planetary (or I presume ConFed government as appropriate). My guess would be that if a RMN ship had to get into a shooting match with another vessel susptected of piracey or caught a ship in the act, they would possibly defalut to just spacing the survivors- after a military trial and questioning. I can't imagine that many of the RMN, having once observed some of the horror we were treated to in the stories/descriptions of what pirates were doing to crews, would let the perpetrators out of it alive.

You'll find textev on this I "Honor Among Enemies," where she serves as captain of Wayfarer and defacto commodore of a squadron of Q-ships deployed to Silesia. The above characterization is substantially correct.

Don

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:You are mistakenly assuming that this is like a modern capital punishment case. It is not. This is a military trial for piracy, in an era without instant communications across interstellar distances. There is no such thing as a change of venue in these circumstances. The captain has full authority (supported by international treaties) to perform a trial on site, with no appeal.

I know that it isn't.

I'm just surprised that it isn't, as reflected in my opening post.

I do understand what you were saying. I know you were merely expressing surprise in that first post, but I wasn't responding to the first post. I was responding to your suggestion that the defense lawyer for the pirates should request a change of venue. The concept of change of venue did not come into existence until modern communication speeds were available. It is not practical when communication speeds are weeks or months long.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:You are mistakenly assuming that this is like a modern capital punishment case. It is not. This is a military trial for piracy, in an era without instant communications across interstellar distances. There is no such thing as a change of venue in these circumstances. The captain has full authority (supported by international treaties) to perform a trial on site, with no appeal.

I know that it isn't.

I'm just surprised that it isn't, as reflected in my opening post.

SWM wrote:I do understand what you were saying. I know you were merely expressing surprise in that first post, but I wasn't responding to the first post. I was responding to your suggestion that the defense lawyer for the pirates should request a change of venue. The concept of change of venue did not come into existence until modern communication speeds were available. It is not practical when communication speeds are weeks or months long.

But change of venue definitely exists in the Honorverse - the future. And I was alluding to the putziness of a lawyer that wouldn't, at least, use it as a tactic - going for setting a precedent.

The very nature of its impracticality - because of communication speeds - are a plus, for the defense attorney, and means more time breathing normally, out from under the pit and the pendulum, for the accused.

Lawyers are supposed to be adept tacticians and strategists.

Of course, in that situation, what you have is a court appointed er ship appointed hangman.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but was Grayson able to build ships much faster than the RMN? I seem to recall them beating the RMN to the SD(p) punch. Was it because of a more efficient building program or because of a "cutting the red tape" sort of thing?

If Grayson are faster builders, then Grayson reps should also be at Bolthole.

Do you think Grayson is represented at Bolthole?

Would/Has the Andermani be/been given the location of Bolthole?

cthia wrote:I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but was Grayson able to build ships much faster than the RMN? I seem to recall them beating the RMN to the SD(p) punch. Was it because of a more efficient building program or because of a "cutting the red tape" sort of thing?

No, they didn't build ships faster (they're quite fast, but marginally slower in the same style yard; also, traditional Manticoran 'hard' yards take longer to set up than traditional Grayson 'dispersed' yards but are more efficient once you get going). They got SD(P)s (and a few other things) sooner because they started building them first (right after the design was done, instead of after months of arguing about whether to build the things at all), and in the specific case of GNS Honor Harrington, by abandoning work on other ships and taking parts intend for said other ships in order to finish her faster.

n7axw wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I recall that Honor (or RFC) giving some background about dealing with pirates while Honor is in Silesia.
It appeared that the RMN had been having problems with turning pirates (captured in the act or with evidence of having committed piracy) over to any number of local governments- along with the ships captured- only to find that the majority of them would vanish into the paperwork of bureaucracy or, worse, get captured again doing or with evidence of the same thing on another ship. The captured pirate ships also seemed to show up back in pirate service.
All of this lead to ANYBODY getting picked up and then turned over to a government for trail as pirate or similar crime went onto a list that was constantly updated and shared -at least within the RMN if not also with the Silesian Cofed government and independt systems. If a person on the list was caught a 2nd time by a RMN ship, they went out the airlock. Period.

It was up to the Captain of any given ship to conduct dealings with pirates within the regulations and one option was to turn them over to the nearest planetary (or I presume ConFed government as appropriate). My guess would be that if a RMN ship had to get into a shooting match with another vessel susptected of piracey or caught a ship in the act, they would possibly defalut to just spacing the survivors- after a military trial and questioning. I can't imagine that many of the RMN, having once observed some of the horror we were treated to in the stories/descriptions of what pirates were doing to crews, would let the perpetrators out of it alive.

You'll find textev on this I "Honor Among Enemies," where she serves as captain of Wayfarer and defacto commodore of a squadron of Q-ships deployed to Silesia. The above characterization is substantially correct.

Don

There was a lovely little related discussion regarding pirates beginning with one of my posts, that solicited a rare visit from RFC. Several pages of discussion ensued.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5069&hilit=zero+tolerance&start=1134

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I do understand what you were saying. I know you were merely expressing surprise in that first post, but I wasn't responding to the first post. I was responding to your suggestion that the defense lawyer for the pirates should request a change of venue. The concept of change of venue did not come into existence until modern communication speeds were available. It is not practical when communication speeds are weeks or months long.

But change of venue definitely exists in the Honorverse - the future. And I was alluding to the putziness of a lawyer that wouldn't, at least, use it as a tactic - going for setting a precedent.

The very nature of its impracticality - because of communication speeds - are a plus, for the defense attorney, and means more time breathing normally, out from under the pit and the pendulum, for the accused.

Lawyers are supposed to be adept tacticians and strategists.

Of course, in that situation, what you have is a court appointed er ship appointed hangman.

I don't recall any evidence that change of venue exists in the Honorverse, but I could have missed it. Do you have a citation?

I'm quite certain that it does not exist aboard navy ships on distant deployment.

It would be rather silly for a defense attorney for a pirate to request a change of venue in this situation, even to set a precedent. The person who would decide on the request is still the captain of the ship--the entire point is that on deployed ships there is no higher authority to appeal to. Requesting a change of venue would not delay the proceedings; the captain could make the decision right away. He does not have to call headquarters for a ruling. The precedent has already been set, and is honored internationally in the Honorverse--the captain is the final authority. This is not 21st century Earth. This is more like 18th century British Navy.

Change of venue does not exist in an environment where captains must be given total authority because communication times are too long.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but was Grayson able to build ships much faster than the RMN? I seem to recall them beating the RMN to the SD(p) punch. Was it because of a more efficient building program or because of a "cutting the red tape" sort of thing?

No, they didn't build ships faster (they're quite fast, but marginally slower in the same style yard; also, traditional Manticoran 'hard' yards take longer to set up than traditional Grayson 'dispersed' yards but are more efficient once you get going). They got SD(P)s (and a few other things) sooner because they started building them first (right after the design was done, instead of after months of arguing about whether to build the things at all), and in the specific case of GNS Honor Harrington, by abandoning work on other ships and taking parts intend for said other ships in order to finish her faster.

What the GSN did was divert long-lead equipment I.e grazers, fusion engines from other building projects, namely the Diveski class SD.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I do understand what you were saying. I know you were merely expressing surprise in that first post, but I wasn't responding to the first post. I was responding to your suggestion that the defense lawyer for the pirates should request a change of venue. The concept of change of venue did not come into existence until modern communication speeds were available. It is not practical when communication speeds are weeks or months long.

But change of venue definitely exists in the Honorverse - the future. And I was alluding to the putziness of a lawyer that wouldn't, at least, use it as a tactic - going for setting a precedent.

The very nature of its impracticality - because of communication speeds - are a plus, for the defense attorney, and means more time breathing normally, out from under the pit and the pendulum, for the accused.

Lawyers are supposed to be adept tacticians and strategists.

Of course, in that situation, what you have is a court appointed er ship appointed hangman.

SWM wrote:I don't recall any evidence that change of venue exists in the Honorverse, but I could have missed it. Do you have a citation?

I'm quite certain that it does not exist aboard navy ships on distant deployment.

It would be rather silly for a defense attorney for a pirate to request a change of venue in this situation, even to set a precedent. The person who would decide on the request is still the captain of the ship--the entire point is that on deployed ships there is no higher authority to appeal to. Requesting a change of venue would not delay the proceedings; the captain could make the decision right away. He does not have to call headquarters for a ruling. The precedent has already been set, and is honored internationally in the Honorverse--the captain is the final authority. This is not 21st century Earth. This is more like 18th century British Navy.

Change of venue does not exist in an environment where captains must be given total authority because communication times are too long.

Don't know of nor was I referencing any source to the effect.

But, why wouldn't a mechanism of the justice system that ensures a fair trial not survive into the future? There are still trials on planet that are ripe for a change of venue. Even the 18th century British Navy eventually moved into the future one change of venue at a time.

But all of this is a moot point and it isn't the cog that turns the sprocket that moves the thought.

For the poor sap who is the victim of difficult to see and prove extenuating circumstances, should have access to a defense attorney adept enough to save an innocent man.

Or the vile blood of savagery runs through the veins of both the accuser and the accused.

It's okay that you don't like the idea of the existence of a change in venue, but the lawyer should be able to reshuffle the deck somehow or, what is his purpose really, if the results are going to be the same? Unless one considers a mockery of justice fitting and reasonable, because of the vastness of distance and the dead of space.

And you can't really expect a fair trial to be held on ship. Especially if the captain is some asshole, without morals, scruples, values or gives-a-damns. *But you are a decent lawyer, a conscientious lawyer, who really believes in your client's innocence, yet no one else does. And you and the captain don't exactly see eye to eye, and you know that captain isn't fair. Or the lawyer in question is cut from the same moral cloth as Harrington, because he is a distant cousin of hers, and the captain hates Harrington, therefore hates you. That situation is so ripe for a change of venue that it's rotten.

But alas, I guess, innocent or no, off with his head!"

*I am not inviting anecdotes such as...
Decent and lawyer used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Conscientious used as an adjective for lawyer is grammatically incorrect.

Though I would find them rather hilarious.