Honorverse ramblings and musings

kzt wrote:Among other minor details, they just got done with a series of wars that probably killed upwards of 10 million people and cost each of them at least 5 years of economic growth. You would have to be strikingly naive to think that the RoH and the SEM won't in the future have areas of disagreement, or even, over time, fundamental differences. People that naive don't usually end up in decision making positions for governments.

Yep, feels... sounds... and... 'snif' smells like straw to me.

cthia wrote:Yep, feels... sounds... and... 'snif' smells like straw to me.

Whatever dude.

kzt wrote:Among other minor details, they just got done with a series of wars that probably killed upwards of 10 million people and cost each of them at least 5 years of economic growth. You would have to be strikingly naive to think that the RoH and the SEM won't in the future have areas of disagreement, or even, over time, fundamental differences. People that naive don't usually end up in decision making positions for governments.

I hate to break it to you, cthia, but kzt is absolutely right. Of course they're going to have disagreements, arguments, and fundamental differences. Hell, that occurs within the Manticoran government all the time; what makes you think it won't occur between two entirely different nations who evolved independently?

I, more than maybe anyone else on this board, believe in the Grand Alliance heart and soul. But that doesn't mean that Manticore and Haven are going to be acting in perfect, delightful, breezy accord for the rest of recorded history. Grand Alliance or no, possible future trade agreements, treaties, and mutual citizenship arrangements or none, they are two separate star nations. Nations whose futures are entwined, now, by choice, but separate nations nonetheless.

You bet your ass they'll be spying on each other. Not out of any desire to undermine the other, because their futures are knit and they both know that they are better off facing that future together, but for one simple, time-honored, fundamental reason.

Governments keep secrets.

And they also make it their business to find out whatever secrets other nations are keeping from them.

You can bet the USA and the UK spy on each other. You can bet that Sweden and Norway spy on each other. We know for damn sure that the USA spies on Germany, and that Germany is Not Happy about it - and probably tripled their surveillance on the USA in turn after that little bombshell dropped. And we already know that Beowulf - by all accounts Manticore's closest and most long-standing ally - spies on Manticore, and that Manticore returns the favor. It's just as important to know what your allies aren't telling you as it is to know what your enemies aren't telling you. That doesn't mean the Alliance is built on a foundation that can't stand; it's a simple and inarguable truth of real-world politics. Given the history between Manticore and Haven, that goes ten times over.

Yes, they trust each other now. Yes, they stand united now and, I believe, for centuries to come. But Eloise Pritchart is the very antithesis of naive, and Queen Elizabeth is in almost every way her equal. They're never going to come out and talk to each other about the covert intelligence they're carrying out on each other's star nations, because they won't have to.

And someday, as A Rising Thunder has already shown us, that may very well save them both in the end. Because what two heads of state - even as close as these two have become - cannot say to each other as official representatives of their governments, even in private, unofficial communication, they will be able to say to each other through covert channels - such as those maintained by one Victor Cachat and Anton Zilwicki.

So goes reality. So goes politics. And so, too, goes the Grand Alliance - a mutually beneficial partnership, yes, but not a naive one.

And that is just as it should be.

roseandheather wrote:

kzt wrote:Among other minor details, they just got done with a series of wars that probably killed upwards of 10 million people and cost each of them at least 5 years of economic growth. You would have to be strikingly naive to think that the RoH and the SEM won't in the future have areas of disagreement, or even, over time, fundamental differences. People that naive don't usually end up in decision making positions for governments.

I hate to break it to you, cthia, but kzt is absolutely right. Of course they're going to have disagreements, arguments, and fundamental differences. Hell, that occurs within the Manticoran government all the time; what makes you think it won't occur between two entirely different nations who evolved independently?

I, more than maybe anyone else on this board, believe in the Grand Alliance heart and soul. But that doesn't mean that Manticore and Haven are going to be acting in perfect, delightful, breezy accord for the rest of recorded history. Grand Alliance or no, possible future trade agreements, treaties, and mutual citizenship arrangements or none, they are two separate star nations. Nations whose futures are entwined, now, by choice, but separate nations nonetheless.

You bet your ass they'll be spying on each other. Not out of any desire to undermine the other, because their futures are knit and they both know that they are better off facing that future together, but for one simple, time-honored, fundamental reason.

Governments keep secrets.

And they also make it their business to find out whatever secrets other nations are keeping from them.

You can bet the USA and the UK spy on each other. You can bet that Sweden and Norway spy on each other. We know for damn sure that the USA spies on Germany, and that Germany is Not Happy about it - and probably tripled their surveillance on the USA in turn after that little bombshell dropped. And we already know that Beowulf - by all accounts Manticore's closest and most long-standing ally - spies on Manticore, and that Manticore returns the favor. It's just as important to know what your allies aren't telling you as it is to know what your enemies aren't telling you. That doesn't mean the Alliance is built on a foundation that can't stand; it's a simple and inarguable truth of real-world politics. Given the history between Manticore and Haven, that goes ten times over.

Yes, they trust each other now. Yes, they stand united now and, I believe, for centuries to come. But Eloise Pritchart is the very antithesis of naive, and Queen Elizabeth is in almost every way her equal. They're never going to come out and talk to each other about the covert intelligence they're carrying out on each other's star nations, because they won't have to.

And someday, as A Rising Thunder has already shown us, that may very well save them both in the end. Because what two heads of state - even as close as these two have become - cannot say to each other as official representatives of their governments, even in private, unofficial communication, they will be able to say to each other through covert channels - such as those maintained by one Victor Cachat and Anton Zilwicki.

So goes reality. So goes politics. And so, too, goes the Grand Alliance - a mutually beneficial partnership, yes, but not a naive one.

And that is just as it should be.

Ouch! I feel as though I've just been laid across your lap and spanked like McQueen whacked Hamish.

Relax, kzt, Rose. I agree. I accept - that to expect total trust in the fashion that I'd hoped - is a bit naive. I simply find it ironic - that in peace, that in an Alliance, that in trust, is also born suspicion, paranoia, hesitation, uneasiness, caution. I personally can see the heaping helping of irony. And I spoke my mind. And regardless of how prudent it may be to maintain one's spies, it all seems a bit... untrustworthy. Trust tethered with untrust. And that seems, to me, to be a house built of fragile straw. So is life, I suppose. Today's phraseology would be "it is what it is?" Little wonder that I hate that phrase so much, as it reeks of complacence and resigned acceptance.

But, alas, I guess bricks can be built of straw.

However, I still cannot avoid the glaring irony.

I hear my family and friends in my ear now. "You're too kind and decent."

My nieces and sisters constantly say, "You were born a millennia too soon."

Perhaps.

cthia wrote:Ouch! I feel as though I've just been laid across your lap and spanked like McQueen whacked Hamish.

Relax, kzt, Rose. I agree. I accept - that to expect total trust in the fashion that I'd hoped - is a bit naive. I simply find it ironic - that in peace, that in an Alliance, that in trust, is also born suspicion, paranoia, hesitation, uneasiness, caution. I personally can see the heaping helping of irony. And I spoke my mind. And regardless of how prudent it may be to maintain one's spies, it all seems a bit... untrustworthy. Trust tethered with untrust. And that seems, to me, to be a house built of fragile straw. So is life, I suppose. Today's phraseology would be "it is what it is?" Little wonder that I hate that phrase so much, as it reeks of complacence and resigned acceptance.

But, alas, I guess bricks can be built of straw.

However, I still cannot avoid the glaring irony.

I hear my family and friends in my ear now. "You're too kind and decent."

My nieces and sisters constantly say, "You were born a millennia too soon."

Perhaps.

Don't worry, cthia, allies would never do anything so crass as to actually spy on each other.

It's called "Keeping an eye on things."

Or as President Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify." Although he said that about the former USSR, which was not an ally at the time, the saying holds true even with close allies.

Note: According to the Wikipedia entry, Trust but verify is actually a Russian proverb that Reagan used as a signature phrase in discussing relations with the Soviet Union. "The original Russian proverb is a short rhyme which states, Доверяй, но проверяй (doveryai, no proveryai)."

Hi Cthia,

I doubt that there is any such thing as complete trust amongst governments. The old days of gentlemen not reading the mail of other gentlemen are long gone if they ever really existed in the first place. I'm sure, for example, that we have sourses, informants and spies with a pulse on the Brits even though we have no ally more faithful. The reality is that even among friends, you can never count on interests being completely congruent.

Don

cthia wrote:Something has come to my relief, and sparks questions. Manticore developed FTL. It was later displayed that the Andermani had also developed FTL. Haven also displayed the capability with the Tarantula platform.

I always wondered how the Andermani were able to overcome the engineering problems so quickly. I seem to vaguely recall an Andermani personnel bragging about Andermani Intel having infiltrated certain levels of the Manticoran government. When I say quickly, regarding the Andermani, my evidence is in the consideration that the Manties were so careful in keeping the ability under wraps and for the Andermani to go ahead and spend R&D time on it had to come from the fact that the Manties showed FTL to be possible. But how did the Manties show the possibility to the Andermani when they were so careful to keep it under wraps? Of course the RHN became aware because it was used against them. But how did the Andermani know? It was never used against them?

Then I found this in the wiki.

↑ Admiral Sonja Hemphill began developing the idea following a report on a tactic Captain Honor Harrington used in Silesia to signal to IANS Neue Bayern. HMS Fearless flickered her wedge causing a gravitational pulse, which effectively moved faster than light and was visible to Warshawski detectors. (HHA4.2: WOS)

Okay. The implication of this is that the Andermani was technically alerted to the possibility of FTL at the same time as Sonja Hemphill from Honor's tactic. That explains that.

What it doesn't explain is how the Andermani was able to shoehorn the tech into something the size of a recon drone. Whose likelihood was made obvious in the ability of the IANS Hellbarde while shadowing the HMS Jessica Epps in the Harston System. (HH10) Wiki confirms my perception of IAN's FTL recon drone tech.

So many questions. How was the Andermani able to...

1. So quickly beat Haven to the FTL punch?
2. How were the Andermani also able to solve the engineering problems so quickly to shoehorn it into an RD? A stealthy RD at that.
3. Am I correct that Haven still hadn't matched the RD capability? Haven was still using the huge Tarantula platform.
4. Since the Andermani has cleared the FTL miniaturization hurdles, doesn't it seem likely that the next step of developing their own counterpart to Apollo is imminent, if not a reality already?
5. Doesn't all of this suggest that Andermani R&D is on a par with the RMN, which suggests that their education system may very well be as well.
6. Since the RHN and RMN are now allies, is it likely that they've divulged each other's security leaks? "By the way, John Doe was actually working for us?" I mean, if there is indeed trust now.
7. Ditto, the Andermani?

Tarantula Platform? WHere is that one mentioned?

With respect to the Andermani, perhaps they hired your niece.

cthia wrote:Something has come to my relief, and sparks questions. Manticore developed FTL. It was later displayed that the Andermani had also developed FTL. Haven also displayed the capability with the Tarantula platform.

I always wondered how the Andermani were able to overcome the engineering problems so quickly. I seem to vaguely recall an Andermani personnel bragging about Andermani Intel having infiltrated certain levels of the Manticoran government. When I say quickly, regarding the Andermani, my evidence is in the consideration that the Manties were so careful in keeping the ability under wraps and for the Andermani to go ahead and spend R&D time on it had to come from the fact that the Manties showed FTL to be possible. But how did the Manties show the possibility to the Andermani when they were so careful to keep it under wraps? Of course the RHN became aware because it was used against them. But how did the Andermani know? It was never used against them?

Then I found this in the wiki.

↑ Admiral Sonja Hemphill began developing the idea following a report on a tactic Captain Honor Harrington used in Silesia to signal to IANS Neue Bayern. HMS Fearless flickered her wedge causing a gravitational pulse, which effectively moved faster than light and was visible to Warshawski detectors. (HHA4.2: WOS)

Okay. The implication of this is that the Andermani was technically alerted to the possibility of FTL at the same time as Sonja Hemphill from Honor's tactic. That explains that.

What it doesn't explain is how the Andermani was able to shoehorn the tech into something the size of a recon drone. Whose likelihood was made obvious in the ability of the IANS Hellbarde while shadowing the HMS Jessica Epps in the Harston System. (HH10) Wiki confirms my perception of IAN's FTL recon drone tech.

So many questions. How was the Andermani able to...

1. So quickly beat Haven to the FTL punch?
2. How were the Andermani also able to solve the engineering problems so quickly to shoehorn it into an RD? A stealthy RD at that.
3. Am I correct that Haven still hadn't matched the RD capability? Haven was still using the huge Tarantula platform.
4. Since the Andermani has cleared the FTL miniaturization hurdles, doesn't it seem likely that the next step of developing their own counterpart to Apollo is imminent, if not a reality already?
5. Doesn't all of this suggest that Andermani R&D is on a par with the RMN, which suggests that their education system may very well be as well.
6. Since the RHN and RMN are now allies, is it likely that they've divulged each other's security leaks? "By the way, John Doe was actually working for us?" I mean, if there is indeed trust now.
7. Ditto, the Andermani?

phillies wrote:Tarantula Platform? WHere is that one mentioned?

With respect to the Andermani, perhaps they hired your niece.

****** *

Wiki wrote:
The Republic of Haven deployed FTL communications equipment before the early 1920s PD. The first known use of FTL technology by Haven was during the Battle of Solon with the Tarantula platforms. (HH11)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Faster-than-light

cthia wrote:Something has come to my relief, and sparks questions. Manticore developed FTL. It was later displayed that the Andermani had also developed FTL. Haven also displayed the capability with the Tarantula platform.

I always wondered how the Andermani were able to overcome the engineering problems so quickly. I seem to vaguely recall an Andermani personnel bragging about Andermani Intel having infiltrated certain levels of the Manticoran government. When I say quickly, regarding the Andermani, my evidence is in the consideration that the Manties were so careful in keeping the ability under wraps and for the Andermani to go ahead and spend R&D time on it had to come from the fact that the Manties showed FTL to be possible. But how did the Manties show the possibility to the Andermani when they were so careful to keep it under wraps? Of course the RHN became aware because it was used against them. But how did the Andermani know? It was never used against them?

Then I found this in the wiki.

↑ Admiral Sonja Hemphill began developing the idea following a report on a tactic Captain Honor Harrington used in Silesia to signal to IANS Neue Bayern. HMS Fearless flickered her wedge causing a gravitational pulse, which effectively moved faster than light and was visible to Warshawski detectors. (HHA4.2: WOS)

Okay. The implication of this is that the Andermani was technically alerted to the possibility of FTL at the same time as Sonja Hemphill from Honor's tactic. That explains that.

What it doesn't explain is how the Andermani was able to shoehorn the tech into something the size of a recon drone. Whose likelihood was made obvious in the ability of the IANS Hellbarde while shadowing the HMS Jessica Epps in the Harston System. (HH10) Wiki confirms my perception of IAN's FTL recon drone tech.

So many questions. How was the Andermani able to...

1. So quickly beat Haven to the FTL punch?
2. How were the Andermani also able to solve the engineering problems so quickly to shoehorn it into an RD? A stealthy RD at that.
3. Am I correct that Haven still hadn't matched the RD capability? Haven was still using the huge Tarantula platform.
4. Since the Andermani has cleared the FTL miniaturization hurdles, doesn't it seem likely that the next step of developing their own counterpart to Apollo is imminent, if not a reality already?
5. Doesn't all of this suggest that Andermani R&D is on a par with the RMN, which suggests that their education system may very well be as well.
6. Since the RHN and RMN are now allies, is it likely that they've divulged each other's security leaks? "By the way, John Doe was actually working for us?" I mean, if there is indeed trust now.
7. Ditto, the Andermani?

Easy answer. They're Asians!!!!

cthia wrote:Something has come to my relief, and sparks questions. Manticore developed FTL. It was later displayed that the Andermani had also developed FTL. Haven also displayed the capability with the Tarantula platform.

I always wondered how the Andermani were able to overcome the engineering problems so quickly. I seem to vaguely recall an Andermani personnel bragging about Andermani Intel having infiltrated certain levels of the Manticoran government. When I say quickly, regarding the Andermani, my evidence is in the consideration that the Manties were so careful in keeping the ability under wraps and for the Andermani to go ahead and spend R&D time on it had to come from the fact that the Manties showed FTL to be possible. But how did the Manties show the possibility to the Andermani when they were so careful to keep it under wraps? Of course the RHN became aware because it was used against them. But how did the Andermani know? It was never used against them?

Then I found this in the wiki.

↑ Admiral Sonja Hemphill began developing the idea following a report on a tactic Captain Honor Harrington used in Silesia to signal to IANS Neue Bayern. HMS Fearless flickered her wedge causing a gravitational pulse, which effectively moved faster than light and was visible to Warshawski detectors. (HHA4.2: WOS)

Okay. The implication of this is that the Andermani was technically alerted to the possibility of FTL at the same time as Sonja Hemphill from Honor's tactic. That explains that.

What it doesn't explain is how the Andermani was able to shoehorn the tech into something the size of a recon drone. Whose likelihood was made obvious in the ability of the IANS Hellbarde while shadowing the HMS Jessica Epps in the Harston System. (HH10) Wiki confirms my perception of IAN's FTL recon drone tech.

So many questions. How was the Andermani able to...

1. So quickly beat Haven to the FTL punch?
2. How were the Andermani also able to solve the engineering problems so quickly to shoehorn it into an RD? A stealthy RD at that.
3. Am I correct that Haven still hadn't matched the RD capability? Haven was still using the huge Tarantula platform.
4. Since the Andermani has cleared the FTL miniaturization hurdles, doesn't it seem likely that the next step of developing their own counterpart to Apollo is imminent, if not a reality already?
5. Doesn't all of this suggest that Andermani R&D is on a par with the RMN, which suggests that their education system may very well be as well.
6. Since the RHN and RMN are now allies, is it likely that they've divulged each other's security leaks? "By the way, John Doe was actually working for us?" I mean, if there is indeed trust now.
7. Ditto, the Andermani?

Rakhmamort wrote:Easy answer. They're Asians!!!!

And here I am all this while thinking they're German.

Thank you for the alert. Sure does explain a lot. Take the resourcefulness of the Chinese, mix it with the ingenuity of the Germans, what do you get?... the Andermani!

Yes! Mine eyes have furled!