Honorverse ramblings and musings

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:What is the size difference in a LACs wedge and a Tug's wedge? What is the difference in maneuverability? Can a LAC use its wedge in Oyster Bay-like scenarios to destroy some planet bound debris?

A tug's wedge is much, much larger than a LAC's wedge. A tug has a superdreadnaught's wedge:

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 12 wrote:The thought had no sooner crossed her mind than her eye caught the subtle distortion of an impeller wedge a hell of a lot bigger than any pinnace's. In fact, it was at least the size of a superdreadnought's wedge . . . and it couldn't be more than a couple of hundred kilometers outside its threat perimeter from the station. She tensed internally, then relaxed almost as quickly as she saw the second ship moving steadily—and rapidly—away from Hephaestus behind whoever was generating that wedge and realized what it must be.
Well, I suppose there have to be some exceptions to any rule, she reflected. But even the tugs have been required to make a few operational changes since Haven tried to kill Honor.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Thanks again Vince. How do you regurgitate info so quickly, Merlin?

An I'll take these tidbits to the Captured Solly junk thread.

Can't beat 'em join 'em!

JeffEngel wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:Storm From the Shadows

snip...

The fact that the planet Mesa, despite having quite a nice climate, also possessed a biosystem poorly suited to terrestrial physiology helped lower the price, given the expenses involved in terraforming. But Detweiler hadn't intended to terraform Mesa. Instead, he'd opted to "mesaform" the colonists through genetic engineering.

Anyone any idea of the extent of the differences between the "norm of Earth" and the "norm of Mesa"?

Various bits noted in the Honorverse wiki have it that it is very close to Earth in most respects. The axial tilt is only 9 degrees, so seasons are very mild, and the surface is more than usually covered with land. If I recall correctly, it's got large continents for the most part, so you'd have quite a lot of space in-land, so you'd expect some extensive flat deserts and plains. In that case though, you'd also expect quite a bit of wind, but the planet isn't supposed to have issues with natural disasters. Maybe the wind tends to be consistent more than prone to tornadoes.

Anyway - none of that suggests much for exotic biology, so my guess would be that it's a matter of Mesan life making different, subtle but wide-ranging biochemical choices than terrestrial life - the sorts of things you don't see much til you find you can't digest a blessed thing there.

I don't recall any textev on the percentage of land on Mesa. Was it in Cog?

fallsfromtrees wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Various bits noted in the Honorverse wiki have it that it is very close to Earth in most respects. The axial tilt is only 9 degrees, so seasons are very mild, and the surface is more than usually covered with land. If I recall correctly, it's got large continents for the most part, so you'd have quite a lot of space in-land, so you'd expect some extensive flat deserts and plains. In that case though, you'd also expect quite a bit of wind, but the planet isn't supposed to have issues with natural disasters. Maybe the wind tends to be consistent more than prone to tornadoes.

Anyway - none of that suggests much for exotic biology, so my guess would be that it's a matter of Mesan life making different, subtle but wide-ranging biochemical choices than terrestrial life - the sorts of things you don't see much til you find you can't digest a blessed thing there.

I don't recall any textev on the percentage of land on Mesa. Was it in Cog?

The Honorverse wiki points to Torch of Freedom for that reference.

At the advent of Apollo, the RMN had no idea of its inevitable effectiveness. The RMN had no idea it would turn out to be such a force multiplier. I found myself expecting Apollo missile tactics to include specifically maneuvering for an up the kilt shot. A certain mission kill tactic. I know that this is asking for incredible performance out of Apollo, along with some complicated maneuverings. However, Apollo showed us this very capability throughout its life. I recall the RMN specifically targeting the wedge of an enemy ship. I recall the RMN putting on a mesmerizing dance of pirouetting missiles to target and destroy ... themselves.

So why, was an attack profile to maneuver for an up the kilt shot not employed? It became a moot point because of the effectiveness of the Apollo system even without such attack profiles. But now that the RMN has limited available missiles and offline productions. Then perhaps ... ?

cthia wrote:At the advent of Apollo, the RMN had no idea of its inevitable effectiveness. The RMN had no idea it would turn out to be such a force multiplier. I found myself expecting Apollo missile tactics to include specifically maneuvering for an up the kilt shot. A certain mission kill tactic. I know that this is asking for incredible performance out of Apollo, along with some complicated maneuverings. However, Apollo showed us this very capability throughout its life. I recall the RMN specifically targeting the wedge of an enemy ship. I recall the RMN putting on a mesmerizing dance of pirouetting missiles to target and destroy ... themselves.

So why, was an attack profile to maneuver for an up the kilt shot not employed? It became a moot point because of the effectiveness of the Apollo system even without such attack profiles. But now that the RMN has limited available missiles and offline productions. Then perhaps ... ?

In the specific case to which you are refering hitting the wedges of the targeted vessels was intended as a warning shot,informing those vessels to back off or the next salvo would be targeted for full effect.

As for up the kilt shots, yes, that can and is done. However modern laserheads can also penetrate and destroy sidewalls and armor. So up the kilt is not strictly necessary as desirable as it is from an attackers point of view.

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:At the advent of Apollo, the RMN had no idea of its inevitable effectiveness. The RMN had no idea it would turn out to be such a force multiplier. I found myself expecting Apollo missile tactics to include specifically maneuvering for an up the kilt shot. A certain mission kill tactic. I know that this is asking for incredible performance out of Apollo, along with some complicated maneuverings. However, Apollo showed us this very capability throughout its life. I recall the RMN specifically targeting the wedge of an enemy ship. I recall the RMN putting on a mesmerizing dance of pirouetting missiles to target and destroy ... themselves.

So why, was an attack profile to maneuver for an up the kilt shot not employed? It became a moot point because of the effectiveness of the Apollo system even without such attack profiles. But now that the RMN has limited available missiles and offline productions. Then perhaps ... ?

In the specific case to which you are refering hitting the wedges of the targeted vessels was intended as a warning shot,informing those vessels to back off or the next salvo would be targeted for full effect.

As for up the kilt shots, yes, that can and is done. However modern laserheads can also penetrate and destroy sidewalls and armor. So up the kilt is not strictly necessary as desirable as it is from an attackers point of view.

Don

Yes, I know that targeting the wedge was used as a warning shot in that instance. I was referring to the capability that that suggests.

I don't recall Apollo ever being used to specifically attack up the kilt. Would you point me in that textev direction? That would be so cool.

In fact, I thought an up the kilt shot is still and always will be desirable. It's a definite kill. And I always thought a single missile would be sufficient. Even the older far less capable missiles. The tactic would conserve missile stockpiles.

cthia wrote:At the advent of Apollo, the RMN had no idea of its inevitable effectiveness. The RMN had no idea it would turn out to be such a force multiplier. I found myself expecting Apollo missile tactics to include specifically maneuvering for an up the kilt shot. A certain mission kill tactic. I know that this is asking for incredible performance out of Apollo, along with some complicated maneuverings. However, Apollo showed us this very capability throughout its life. I recall the RMN specifically targeting the wedge of an enemy ship. I recall the RMN putting on a mesmerizing dance of pirouetting missiles to target and destroy ... themselves.

So why, was an attack profile to maneuver for an up the kilt shot not employed? It became a moot point because of the effectiveness of the Apollo system even without such attack profiles. But now that the RMN has limited available missiles and offline productions. Then perhaps ... ?

n7axw wrote:
In the specific case to which you are refering hitting the wedges of the targeted vessels was intended as a warning shot,informing those vessels to back off or the next salvo would be targeted for full effect.

As for up the kilt shots, yes, that can and is done. However modern laserheads can also penetrate and destroy sidewalls and armor. So up the kilt is not strictly necessary as desirable as it is from an attackers point of view.

Don

cthia wrote:Yes, I know that targeting the wedge was used as a warning shot in that instance. I was referring to the capability that that suggests.

I don't recall Apollo ever being used to specifically attack up the kilt. Would you point me in that textev direction? That would be so cool.

In fact, I thought an up the kilt shot is still and always will be desirable. It's a definite kill. And I always thought a single missile would be sufficient. Even the older far less capable missiles. The tactic would conserve missile stockpiles.

Actually, the preferred shot is down the throat - and it is the easier shot, as the front of the wedge is much wider than the back of the wedge. In addition, the main sensors (and most capable ones) are located at the bow of the ship, so it is a more desirable target.

I would be surprised if with any given bracket of missiles in a salvo, there weren't at least some missiles trying for both down the throat and up the kilt shots.

However given the missile defenses of a modern warship, it takes 250+ missiles to mission kill an SDP. In fleet actions, thousands of missiles can be in flight at any given time. One would almost think that they are trying to smother their targets rather than aiming for specific areas of ships. What is really going on is that they are trying to overwhelm the missle defenses to get enough missiles through to do some damage.

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:Actually, the preferred shot is down the throat - and it is the easier shot, as the front of the wedge is much wider than the back of the wedge. In addition, the main sensors (and most capable ones) are located at the bow of the ship, so it is a more desirable target.

Unless you are EXACTLY in front of the ship you still have the sidewall in the way. It's a 20 km wide slot on a 150 km long wedge. And the ship will be maneuvering pretty constantly, it takes very little pitch and roll to completely change the required angle.

Neither up the kilt or down the throat is "a definite kill". The shot still has to actually hit the vessel. Note that the target profile of an on-stern or on-bow shot is much smaller than a side shot, and a much tighter aiming firing moment, although not distorted by sidewall.

Further, the lack of sidewall is exactly the reason that the hammerheads are the toughest, most buffered portion of the warship armoring scheme. Its also the reason that few to no truly critical systems are located in the hammerheads.

Finally, of those 250+ missiles that are ideally distributed to each targeted SD in a wall, dozens of hits must be achieved, anywhere, to achieve mission kill. According to David and his Bu9 minions, that armoring scheme IS tough, in a sense that a mere appreciation of modern battlefield armor can't even approximate. Unless a golden bb detonates (not just takes out - detonates) a fusion core, an SD will typically remain functional after multiple laserhead strikes, even ones on the hammerheads.

Certainly in any salvo attack, the tac section programming and the Apollo AI will be going for some open end shots, with the missiles which will be able to achieve the critical but extremely narrow, extremely snap shot positions necessary. The majority of surviving missiles in the salvo simply will not be able to achieve those kinds of positions, and will optimize final attack positioning for a sidewall shot.

At least that has always been my understanding of the conditions at end-of-attack-run.

dreamrider