Honorverse ramblings and musings

If the GA is going to hit the RF openly they need to ID the target worlds and launch the attacks very quickly. Because if they wait until the RF worlds break away from the SL they can hit the RF worlds unless the RF worlds openly provoke them or it will turn into a PR nightmare, and make the GA look like bullies which would likely drive other worlds and regions to form alliances specifically to counter the GA

Roguevictory wrote:If the GA is going to hit the RF openly they need to ID the target worlds and launch the attacks very quickly. Because if they wait until the RF worlds break away from the SL they can hit the RF worlds unless the RF worlds openly provoke them or it will turn into a PR nightmare, and make the GA look like bullies which would likely drive other worlds and regions to form alliances specifically to counter the GA

And yet, given the compartmentalization that the MAlign has engaged in, it may well not be possible to ID the RF before they split. In addition, didn't RFC say that it was just the immediate problem that was due to be wrapped up in 2 books, and that Honor's kids were going to have to deal with the "final solution" in another series. That might well mean the the RF escapes detection, but that Darius is found and neutralized, with some of the MAlign escaping to the members of the RF and going underground for 50 years or so. My understanding is that the HH series should have ended with AAC and HH's death, and that a new series with Raoul and Katherine handling the parts dealing with the MAlign, but that when Eric Flint required an enemy for Victor and Anton to collaborate together on, the MAlign piece got moved up, and led to SoS, SftS, Sof, MoH, ART, CoS, ToF, and CoG, plus two (or more) books to be named later.

Just a thought

SharkHunter wrote:Mesa wants the GA dead quickly, because they don't have enough systems (if the RF total of 12 is it...) capable of resisting a direct GA invasion.

The MAlign wants the Solarian League dead even more quickly than the GA. The only way they, or the RF, can expand is by picking up systems the Solarian League sheds. If the League has any chance of survival, it is for the MAlign to come out of the Shadows and the League offering to join the GA against them -- I doubt the MAlign would do anything that stupid though.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:If the GA is going to hit the RF openly they need to ID the target worlds and launch the attacks very quickly. Because if they wait until the RF worlds break away from the SL they can hit the RF worlds unless the RF worlds openly provoke them or it will turn into a PR nightmare, and make the GA look like bullies which would likely drive other worlds and regions to form alliances specifically to counter the GA

And yet, given the compartmentalization that the MAlign has engaged in, it may well not be possible to ID the RF before they split. In addition, didn't RFC say that it was just the immediate problem that was due to be wrapped up in 2 books, and that Honor's kids were going to have to deal with the "final solution" in another series. That might well mean the the RF escapes detection, but that Darius is found and neutralized, with some of the MAlign escaping to the members of the RF and going underground for 50 years or so. My understanding is that the HH series should have ended with AAC and HH's death, and that a new series with Raoul and Katherine handling the parts dealing with the MAlign, but that when Eric Flint required an enemy for Victor and Anton to collaborate together on, the MAlign piece got moved up, and led to SoS, SftS, Sof, MoH, ART, CoS, ToF, and CoG, plus two (or more) books to be named later.

Just a thought

Bingo. Once the RF worlds split away from the SL the GA can't invade them even if they manage to identify the RF worlds unless an RF world goes utterly idiotic and attacks the GA.

If I remember right the RF worlds were specifically picked as being worlds whose public images is clean as can be, anti-Mesa's basically, so if the GA invades an RF world without being attacked openly claiming that the world is part of a secret Measn conspiracy most worlds are going to think that either the GA's leadership is lying through its teeth trying to disguise a power grab, or that the GA's leadership has gone utterly insane.

Either way even utterly innocent worlds will start looking for allies, and technology to help them in case they become the targets of future GA aggression.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I have to disagree. I think it wouldmatter quite a bit to the Mandarins. Manticore has been telling them for quite a while that there is a secret organization manipulating the League into this war. Yes, I agree that the Mandarins are out for themselves. But I don't think they would be blind to the implications if a secretive organization which they know nothing about suddenly shows up with enough power to help the League take out the Grand Alliance. Their first thought would be to wonder about the motives of this organization, and how they got all this power. They certainly would not like the implication that the League has been manipulated all along by these people. I don't think the Mandarins are as stupid as you seem to be implying.

After all is said and done at the end of the day, I don't think the Mandarins are stupid either (well, as long as I'm not predisposed to betting on it at a table in Vegas with any of my gaming plaques.)

In fact, I'm betting on it. I was assuming that they're smart enough to see that the smaller wolf is about to huff and puff and blow the big gorilla's house down. And to do nothing is to watch it crumble around them. They had better hope for an avenging angel and a helping hand, or that, as they say, is that. And they can cancel Christmas.

But Manticore isn't about to huff and puff and blow their house down, and the Mandarins know that perfectly well. The Mandarins are quite aware that Manticore has been calling for negotiations the entire time, and it is the Mandarins themselves who have prevented it. The Mandarins are the ones who sent a fleet into Manticore, not the other way around. Manticore has been telling them that someone is manipulating the League into this confrontation. And now comes this mystery group saying they can help the League take Manticore down.

I'm not saying that the League would not try to use this situation to their own advantage. I'm just saying that they are not stupid enough to believe that agreeing with these mysterious powerbrokers is to their advantage.

JeffEngel wrote:Given that the Alignment has been set on the destruction of the Solarian League since long before Haven or Manticore were problems, a plan that preserves the League is not part of the bigger scheme. The point isn't to play kingmaker here between the League and GA - the point is to destroy them - particularly the League.

I am consciously assuming the role of the lone opposer in this. High School and College has taught me that the role of the opposer can be quite lonely. But necessary to fuel a debate.

Having said that, I acknowledge that the longstanding plan of the MAlign has been to eradicate the League, and that, due to prolong, many of its members have imbibed the concept from mother's milk and paid it forward. Nevertheless, even the genius that is Detweiler isn't psychic. Their master plan could not have foreseen the rising forces that was to become the GA. Manticore was born of heart, strength of resolve, and a Soul of Steel. You can't predict that. It is compounded now with the forging of the Grand Alliance. Only a clairvoyant could have seen that coming, and Detweiler didn't. (Unless roseandheather is an activated sleeper on Detweiler's payroll. )

What I'm saying is this, IMO, the MAlignment's master plan has to undergo some sort of major revision, lest it die of static cling. It shouldn't hold to its initial target unerringly when a more immediate and dangerous fish has surged out of the shark infested waters, made an overwhelming cannonball of a splash and has ultimately displayed the propensity to hunt in packs (Manticore, Grayson, Haven) - aka the GA.

The League isn't even a danger to the MAlign's profiteering and sex trafficking empire. (As I'm aware.) I gather, they're one of their biggest clients. Regardless, I was far from suggesting that the MAlign had any intentions of preserving the League in their plans, or that they should. I was simply suggesting a more pointed use of an 800 lb gorilla in its death throes.

It was in error that I meant that the MAlign should come out into the open. I was suggesting that they might reuse those same existing avenues of influence in a more formally planned (and all inclusive - the entire GA), joint military operation. I am assuming that they still have access to standing flunkies in the League (wolves as you refer to them) to move fleets around on a whim, which won't require poking their head out of camouflage any more than their Oyster Bay. (Although I do stand by my thoughts that they wouldn't give a rat's ass about being out in the open if their ultimate plan is achieved. Or when.)

continued

You're making the Alignment out as if it's got the GA in its sights and the League is just a tool, and therefore a possible ally. It's not. It's the primary target. It always has been. And until most of human civilization is no longer under its aegis, it will continue to be. The Alignment needs its wolves to keep taking down the bison. It needs to remain in the shadows so the League does not suspect it has - or that it even can have - a mortal enemy until it is dead. After that, any other bit players (like Manticore, or Haven, or (oops!) the two of them allied) can be scratched off the map as needed.

I must first point out that the League has already been used as unwitting allies.

Thanks for the vote of confidence in my strategic abilities, but I can't take credit for this one. The MAlign did have the GA in its sights, but only in its constituent form. They were manipulating Haven and Manticore into a mutual war of mass mutilation. The MAlign wants to profit from human trafficking. Neither constituent part of the pre-GA is having it. (We won't even entertain where Grayson would pipe in on the ethics of 'sex slaves.') So the 'holier-than-thous' have to be eliminated, and their plan nearly worked. It certainly has cost all sides - Havenite, Manticoran and Grayson - dearly, in terms of lost lives, loved ones (sorry Rose, me too), government, hardware and credits. But those blown ships, both sides, began to intermix and see the insanity of it all. It echoed back to respective heads of governments and an alliance formed.

Can't take the credit for the concept of using the League as a tool either. Wasn't mine. The MAlign moved Solarian fleets around the board like chess pieces and were hoping to kill two birds with one stone.

What keeps coming to my mind is what happened with the old Havenite regime and their plan to topple Manticore by weakening it with the assassination of King Roger. But what they got in return, because of the same psychic limitation mentioned above, was a young Elizabeth Winton, who turned out to be a Soul of Steel with a warrior treecat on one shoulder, a chip on the other and a grudge on her back. It seems to me that genetically engineered Mensa geniuses of Detweiler fame has to be mindful of making the same mistake. Eliminate the League, yet inherit a more dangerous entity in return. One who are aware of you. Detest all you stand for. Have you in their sights, and are hunting you like hell hounds from the Baskervilles with warrior treecats in tow.

The League is the long term primary target. Agreed. But it's a fire which the MAlign cannot become so unerringly consumed while another more raging fire ignites, burns hotter, and itself consumes them in return for their efforts. They'd be in a worse predicament.

continued

What the Alignment can do is stay hidden, help Manticore along with the League's destruction, and work to insure that neither it nor Haven are nuclei for a stable order that the Alignment does not control well enough to bring about Detweiler's vision. The biggest priority there, rationally, is staying hidden. Stay hidden, let Manticore fall on its face with these silly stories about a centuries-long conspiracy, let Manticore topple the League, but compromise their ability to be a reconstructive force. This awful alliance with Haven really has to go, for instance - maybe after a little more kicking the League to bits though.

I agree with the essence of this. Let the confrontation between the League and the GA run its course. BUT, then move fleets around the board to punch out the GA as well. The Alignment cannot afford to leave any witnesses or loose ends. Especially loose ends with the means of the GA - who has you in their sights.

continued

But if they don't stay hidden, the jig is up. Detweiler's vision would remain the least popular political movement ever, and they wouldn't be in the shadows to make it happen slowly in the long term. They won't have the force to handle the GA - or the League, or the Andermani, maybe not even Erewhon - openly, now or in the foreseeable future. IF they're revealed, the League goes from staggered patsy to awakened giant and could patch things up well enough with Manticore. (And Manticore could actually buy that as a basis for peace - everything would be blamed by all parties on the Alignment, so the Solarian thirst for revenge, its wealth, its R&D establishment, would not be aimed at the SEM but instead at the Alignment.)

I'd sure like to believe in this. After all, I'm a Solarian, living happily here around ole Sol. (I even spent a summer in Chicago.) I'd like to see the League reformed and remain alive and a viable entity. BUT, I fear that that would be a barbed risk taken by the GA, whose ass could get caught on that barb at some point in the future when that 800 lb gorilla is now on steroids. I see a possible parallel, in alloted time to arm - from a truce, afforded the League as did the St. Just truce - afforded the Peeps and a chance to 'get back on balance.' Whether the League consciously plans it or not they are going to find themselves in the same scenario as Haven, trying to feed so many mouths and provide them with an acceptable standard of living, if, their previous brand of milking member states cease. And it will, now that these member states have seen glimmers of hope, in the light, exposed by Manticore. As a result, just like Haven, SL sights will set upon the lucrative wormhole junctions of the GA and it will be right back to their expansionistic business.

The MAlign doesn't have to come out into the open to pull this off. Merely set those wolves you mention loose again, and this time coordinate an attack (with or without League knowledge) to eliminate the GA as well, after the GA has served its usefulness.

We can argue all we want whether or not the League and MAlign would ally themselves. And you all are probably right that they won't. But my entire original post centered around fears that if they were to, the GA would be punched out.

continued

They've built the Lenny D's for a reason, yes. There's no guarantee it's still valid, of course. Originally, they were meant for Oyster Bay, to eliminate the warmaking ability of Haven and Manticore - taking down the wolves after they're done with the bison. But they moved up Oyster Bay while the bison lived; they only hit one of the two parties; they didn't eliminate that warmaking ability.... As much as it hurt Manticore, it bit the Alignment on the butt badly, especially when it gave Manticore the impetus and Haven the opening for a peace agreement, and an alliance once the Alignment was revealed to them.

I really appreciate your thoughts here (even more than the others). I overlooked that the Lennys were originally being built for Oyster Bay. Thanks for pointing that out. But they still could be used on a follow up, more inclusive, let's call it Clam Bake, to do what was originally intended. Which is my entire point. The objective to eliminate the war making threat, that is the GA, still exists. You said it yourself. I think they should strike now and not allow the GA to change their diapers.

continued

What they are supposed to use them for now? It's a good question. There may not be a good answer. One guess - back to the original plan, use them to punch out Haven and Manticore for real this time, if they could get away with it. They can't right now.

This was and is my entire point! Punch out Haven and Manticore for real. But because they've lost their initial element of surprise, it might not work this time; unless they could serve up that seafood platter with a twist, of sour lemon, in the form of a follow up Solly fleet used as a misdirection devised to draw GA sensors and preoccupy them.

continued

If they can manufacture some sort of story Sollies (or ex-Sollies) would believe for some other party capable of that, then they could blame that party. Maybe manufacture some rogue interstellar with more capability than anyone had guessed and a grudge for Manticore - ooo, maybe Manpower did it! With that fairy tale, their mouthpieces could concede that the GA was partly right all along, but it was just that Manpower itself and its associated companies were a lot crazier and a lot more powerful than anyone had guessed. That last gasp attack on Haven and Manticore - complete with Eridani violations - was clearly the result of some disturbed slavers. It's another pity it happened after the League was thoroughly discredited. Someone should hunt those monsters down and kill them. Our new star nation - we call it the Renaissance Factor - will assume that grave duty. No need to thank us....

In conjunction with the aforementioned.

****** *

The Solarian League, with all its faults, are at least consistent and true to form - institutional arrogance as a symptom of a swollen head from centuries of not only being the biggest bully on the block, but the only bully on the block. Problem with this longstanding, deeply rooted arrogance, is that it has permeated their entire mindset and settled into their bones. It's the kind of institutional arrogance that has to die out. (Like racism.) Which is why, that even though I don't think the Mandarins are stupid per se, institutional arrogance is its own form of stupidity. Which is why I think that the League would jump at the chance to temporarily ally with the MAlignment. That deeply rooted institutional arrogance would most likely see, a much smaller than even the GA bunch of neobarbs, as even a much smaller threat.

cthia wrote:Thanks for the vote of confidence in my strategic abilities, but I can't take credit for this one. The MAlign did have the GA in its sights, but only in its constituent form. They were manipulating Haven and Manticore into a mutual war of mass mutilation. The MAlign wants to profit from human trafficking. Neither constituent part of the pre-GA is having it. (We won't even entertain where Grayson would pipe in on the ethics of 'sex slaves.') So the 'holier-than-thous' have to be eliminated, and their plan nearly worked. It certainly has cost all sides - Havenite, Manticoran and Grayson - dearly, in terms of lost lives, loved ones (sorry Rose, me too), government, hardware and credits. But those blown ships, both sides, began to intermix and see the insanity of it all. It echoed back to respective heads of governments and an alliance formed.

Having said what I wanted, I wasn't going to say much more on this thread. But I think I need to correct a misconception here.

The Mesan Alignment does not intend to profit from human trafficking.

In fact, Zilwickie did an analysis which made him think that genetic slavery is actually not profitable. The Alignment has been using Manpower as a scarecrow, propping it up as an obvious target while using its research to further their own ends. It is quite possible that genetic slavery never really made a profit for them.

The Alignment has now abandoned Mesa. They are no longer engaging in human trafficking. Manpower is either dead or will be soon, and the Alignment has no further connection with them. The Alignment doesn't care about the "holier than thou's", as you put it--it doesn't matter to them any more. Genetic slavery is no longer an issue for them. It was only an issue while they were using Manpower as a front. So no, the Alignment does not have to eliminate the "holier than thou's".

The Alignment's issue with Haven and Manticore is much more practical--they are big enough to pose a threat to their plan to take over in the shadows when the League falls apart. And now the threat is worse because they know about the Alignment. For the Alignment, it was never about genetic slavery. That was merely a means to an end, and one which even some people in the Alignment think now might have been a mistake.

The Mesan Alignment was never about genetic slavery.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks for the vote of confidence in my strategic abilities, but I can't take credit for this one. The MAlign did have the GA in its sights, but only in its constituent form. They were manipulating Haven and Manticore into a mutual war of mass mutilation. The MAlign wants to profit from human trafficking. Neither constituent part of the pre-GA is having it. (We won't even entertain where Grayson would pipe in on the ethics of 'sex slaves.') So the 'holier-than-thous' have to be eliminated, and their plan nearly worked. It certainly has cost all sides - Havenite, Manticoran and Grayson - dearly, in terms of lost lives, loved ones (sorry Rose, me too), government, hardware and credits. But those blown ships, both sides, began to intermix and see the insanity of it all. It echoed back to respective heads of governments and an alliance formed.

Having said what I wanted, I wasn't going to say much more on this thread. But I think I need to correct a misconception here.

The Mesan Alignment does not intend to profit from human trafficking.

In fact, Zilwickie did an analysis which made him think that genetic slavery is actually not profitable. The Alignment has been using Manpower as a scarecrow, propping it up as an obvious target while using its research to further their own ends. It is quite possible that genetic slavery never really made a profit for them.

The Alignment has now abandoned Mesa. They are no longer engaging in human trafficking. Manpower is either dead or will be soon, and the Alignment has no further connection with them. The Alignment doesn't care about the "holier than thou's", as you put it--it doesn't matter to them any more. Genetic slavery is no longer an issue for them. It was only an issue while they were using Manpower as a front. So no, the Alignment does not have to eliminate the "holier than thou's".

The Alignment's issue with Haven and Manticore is much more practical--they are big enough to pose a threat to their plan to take over in the shadows when the League falls apart. And now the threat is worse because they know about the Alignment. For the Alignment, it was never about genetic slavery. That was merely a means to an end, and one which even some people in the Alignment think now might have been a mistake.

The Mesan Alignment was never about genetic slavery.

I understand your having spoken your peace and wanting not to say more. And I respect that. Please allow me to defend my stance.

I also remember arguing this same point in another thread. And I stand by it. First, I only meant that, as textev stated, Manticore's, and Haven's stance on genetic slavery angered the Mesans. And they wanted them to get their just desserts.

Perhaps the Alignment has distanced themselves from the Mesans, but they did want to profit from it. Did, indeed, profit from it, and everyone in this thread is implying that they will continue to do so.

Now, I can't speak for anyone else, however, I see profit in terms other than credits. As I argued eons ago in another thread. I agree that the MAlign, itself, cares nothing about the financial aspect of the sex industry. Isn't it obvious they aren't feeling the bottom of the barrel in their bank accounts? However, as I assimilated, they indeed did profit from its use as icing on a baited hook, incentives, to move fleets, accept bribes and become ammunition for The MAlign Files held over certain idiots' heads in the SLN. It was instrumental in those fleets being moved about space. And the MAlign aren't done with them either.

Oh, and a means to an end is profit.

*A grafted plant from the Cupid thread.

My, then 12-yr-old, niece and I were discussing Michelle, she likes Michelle too Rose - reminds her of one of her bff's. I said to her how I think Michelle would make a good Queen, but that I didn't want anyone to die for her to be made so. My niece suggested that she wouldn't have to. That all concerned could be kidnapped and held in a stalag (since visiting a concentration camp in Germany she loves the word stalag, not the concept, just the word.)

Her scenario puts Michelle temporarily on the throne, thinking Elizabeth and everyone dead for a year or so and making interesting and powerful decisions as Queen, culminating with making hard calls when wind of Elizabeth's survival and whereabouts are obtained. She paints a very good picture, my niece, y'all. Really.

I'm not going to quote cthia's long post on the Malign. SWM made one of my points, genetic slavery was a means to an end for the Malign, given that the RF is going to initially at least be opposed to the practice. The other point is that considerable of the MAlign's problems have been caused by modifying their original plans. For whatever reason, they decided that after the battle of Manticore, it was a propitious time to take down the SKM. Had they not done so, then the confrontation between the League and Manticore would not have occurred for a generation. You almost certainly would not have had Victor and Anton investigating on Mesa itself, and therefore almost certainly would not have Simoes defecting, and blowing the MAlign's cover sky high. Attempting to modify your plans again, given the rather poor track record for modifying them the first time, strikes me as a recipe for even further disaster.