What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

Hutch wrote:Another thing mitigating a 'siege' or 'wait them out' effort.

Zavala had already experienced one bad surprise by finding four Sollie BC's in the system when he had no reason to believe that there was anything larger than a DD there. It had to be in the back of his head that if those four were there, maybe something larger and more numerous (like a SLN BatSqd) might hyper in sometime soon.

Far-fetched, but Jacob Zavala had been at Spindle and knew that someone had managed to get 9 squadrons of SD's out this way....who's to say a tenth wasn't proverably around the corner?

And while Rolands are indeed very tough customers, he had shot off about 40% of his ammo (8 of 20 rounds per tube, IIRC) at the BC's, so his ability to sustain combat would have been limited.

So not knowing what else might be coming over the Hyper limit would have worked against a 'long-term' stragety.


IMHO as always. YMMV.

I have to agree, but on the other hand (yes, I argue with myself, and sometimes represent more than two sides...) - he did now know that he could kill Solly BC's with fewer missiles by far.

But that does get back to minimizing casualties - Solarian ones, in this case. Killing Solarians is not an actual Manticoran aim as such, and the more SLN personnel die, the harder genuine peace is going to be afterward. I'm not going to claim it's a very strong priority, but if a fast rescue leaves you less likely to have to kill another great big lot of fellow spacers, it's an argument in its favor, all else being equal.

Other bad things that may happen with time include - at least - Duenas managing to get the Saltash authorities as such behind the quarantine, making it a Manticoran versus plucky Verge system problem politically, with OFS as the Verge system's possible rescuer, or at least fellow victim of Manticoran bullying. How well that would play anywhere is another issue, but I doubt Zavala would care to find out.

Psychologically, a siege is not going to present an image of strength, and the Gendarmerie and Duenas will figure that help is inevitably on the way: either the invincible SLN, or counter-orders from a "saner", cooler head up Zavala's chain of command. So they'd hold out and keep holding out, during which time the hostages are still in danger and the Gendarmerie morale is likelier to get tougher (and possibly their position better secured) if/when you do decide to go in.

A better trained, better equipped hostage rescue force would be great. I would also like a pony, and my cats would like to have a reign of blood and death and terror to fuel the nightmares of worlds. But in the meantime, Zavala had a situation that he had to deal with with the personnel, resources, and time he had.

I would expect it, as VIPs expect to have their safety considered above all else, and having a separate air quality control section as part of the VIP section would make sense, even if the Gendarme's had not insisted on having one inserted when they took the VIP section over.

Why? Who would dare to raise their hand against their Solarian Lords and Masters? In all seriousness in a siege situation no matter the circumstances, they will find something to do to the besieged, which MIGHT make them give up. I very much doubt, that your typical Gendarmes Commander is your prepared for any and all possibilities type.

JeffEngel wrote:I have to agree, but on the other hand (yes, I argue with myself, and sometimes represent more than two sides...) - he did now know that he could kill Solly BC's with fewer missiles by far.

But that does get back to minimizing casualties - Solarian ones, in this case. Killing Solarians is not an actual Manticoran aim as such, and the more SLN personnel die, the harder genuine peace is going to be afterward. I'm not going to claim it's a very strong priority, but if a fast rescue leaves you less likely to have to kill another great big lot of fellow spacers, it's an argument in its favor, all else being equal.

An assault is not really the tactic I would use, if I try to minimize casualties on both sides.

Other bad things that may happen with time include - at least - Duenas managing to get the Saltash authorities as such behind the quarantine, making it a Manticoran versus plucky Verge system problem politically, with OFS as the Verge system's possible rescuer, or at least fellow victim of Manticoran bullying. How well that would play anywhere is another issue, but I doubt Zavala would care to find out.

They can spin it however they like it no matter what happens.

Psychologically, a siege is not going to present an image of strength, and the Gendarmerie and Duenas will figure that help is inevitably on the way: either the invincible SLN, or counter-orders from a "saner", cooler head up Zavala's chain of command. So they'd hold out and keep holding out, during which time the hostages are still in danger and the Gendarmerie morale is likelier to get tougher (and possibly their position better secured) if/when you do decide to go in.

If a siege is a weak tactic, why is it initially employed in almost all hostages situations in real life (not that I am an expert on such things).

A better trained, better equipped hostage rescue force would be great. I would also like a pony, and my cats would like to have a reign of blood and death and terror to fuel the nightmares of worlds. But in the meantime, Zavala had a situation that he had to deal with with the personnel, resources, and time he had.

And that justifies running extreme risks, without attempting other avenues how?

Hutch wrote:Another thing mitigating a 'siege' or 'wait them out' effort.

Zavala had already experienced one bad surprise by finding four Sollie BC's in the system when he had no reason to believe that there was anything larger than a DD there. It had to be in the back of his head that if those four were there, maybe something larger and more numerous (like a SLN BatSqd) might hyper in sometime soon.

Far-fetched, but Jacob Zavala had been at Spindle and knew that someone had managed to get 9 squadrons of SD's out this way....who's to say a tenth wasn't proverably around the corner?

And while Rolands are indeed very tough customers, he had shot off about 40% of his ammo (8 of 20 rounds per tube, IIRC) at the BC's, so his ability to sustain combat would have been limited.

So not knowing what else might be coming over the Hyper limit would have worked against a 'long-term' stragety.


IMHO as always. YMMV.

Okay on the one hand, there is the risk, that a couple of SDs just happen to wander into one of the most out of the way systems in the whole known universe in the next days and weeks, while I besiege someone. On the other hand there is the risk of my improvised hostage rescue, by unqualified troops against heavily armed and entrenched opponents failing.

I know which risk I would pick.

--snip--

torlek wrote:Unfortunately, Roland-class Destroyers don't normally carry "a competent hostage rescue team"

Gonna have to disagree about the competency question; both Abigail and Mateo felt like they were up against amateurs. They used a well-thought out tactic to thoroughly intimidate both the initial contactee AND Major Prole, then ruthlessly used their advantage based on the local assist to keep their opponent backing up, pulled the reserve out of position to intervene, and got their people out with no casualties. As to the Gendarmes just being stupid behind doors, it doesn't say that every set of Gendarmes was killed by breaching the door, it says that every door they came up against was breached, and the defenders were being slaughtered as they moved forward.

I'd call that DANG competent.

Torlek wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I have to agree, but on the other hand (yes, I argue with myself, and sometimes represent more than two sides...) - he did now know that he could kill Solly BC's with fewer missiles by far.

But that does get back to minimizing casualties - Solarian ones, in this case. Killing Solarians is not an actual Manticoran aim as such, and the more SLN personnel die, the harder genuine peace is going to be afterward. I'm not going to claim it's a very strong priority, but if a fast rescue leaves you less likely to have to kill another great big lot of fellow spacers, it's an argument in its favor, all else being equal.

An assault is not really the tactic I would use, if I try to minimize casualties on both sides.

It's not all that appealing, but other options end up looking no better and possibly worse.

Other bad things that may happen with time include - at least - Duenas managing to get the Saltash authorities as such behind the quarantine, making it a Manticoran versus plucky Verge system problem politically, with OFS as the Verge system's possible rescuer, or at least fellow victim of Manticoran bullying. How well that would play anywhere is another issue, but I doubt Zavala would care to find out.

They can spin it however they like it no matter what happens.

They can try. They may fail, and if you can avoid helping them, that's a plus for a plan.

Psychologically, a siege is not going to present an image of strength, and the Gendarmerie and Duenas will figure that help is inevitably on the way: either the invincible SLN, or counter-orders from a "saner", cooler head up Zavala's chain of command. So they'd hold out and keep holding out, during which time the hostages are still in danger and the Gendarmerie morale is likelier to get tougher (and possibly their position better secured) if/when you do decide to go in.

If a siege is a weak tactic, why is it initially employed in almost all hostages situations in real life (not that I am an expert on such things).

Normally, it provides time for the siege forces to better prepare and improve the situation. The people inside are unlikely to expect help from the outside if they wait. If they took hostages in the heat of a moment, time to cool off may change their views. If the siege forces aren't going to give in and give the hostage keepers what they want, the hostage takers are faced with accepting something less than that - usually, terms of surrender that beat remaining in that situation or confronting an assault.

Here, the Gendarmerie may have felt that time was on their side; the commander was thinking in career terms still, so giving up without getting a very good deal wasn't an option in his head - nothing he believed possible was worse than giving the hostages up.

The situation wasn't going to change favorably for Zavala with time, barring some outbreak of just-not-thinking-like-a-Solly on the part of Pole and/or Duenas, and appearing reluctant to press the issue would have made that outbreak less likely. Meanwhile, the Sollies would figure that time may improve the situation for them - probably wrongly, but when it's a matter of changing minds, it's their minds that matter.

A better trained, better equipped hostage rescue force would be great. I would also like a pony, and my cats would like to have a reign of blood and death and terror to fuel the nightmares of worlds. But in the meantime, Zavala had a situation that he had to deal with with the personnel, resources, and time he had.

And that justifies running extreme risks, without attempting other avenues how?

You do what you must - take what risks you must - based on what you've got available. There's a risk in going in without the ideal hostage rescue party of your dreams. There's a risk in any other option. Zavala accepted the first risk, with good planning, good people, and local help, against overconfident, not terribly competent opposition.

If he had a magical wand of hostage rescue, then he chose terribly going the way he did. He did not in fact have a magical wand of hostage rescue. Sieges are not magical wands of hostage rescue. Threatening people with mass murder, when they won't believe you're capable of it and you're not authorized to commit it, is also not a magical wand of hostage rescue. Committing unauthorized mass murder... there's a trend here, see.

In this discussion between Torlek and, apparently, everyone else, no one is bringing up the matter of his basic assumptions; that "hostage rescue" is a rare occurance that requires specialists. Or that the lives of the hostages are Zavala's principal responsibility.

While the focus in the thread is on the military risks of hostage taking, one of the paramount responsibilities of Zavala is the enforcement of Manticoran sovereignty. It was the refusal to honor that sovereignty (and all their treaty obligations) that led to the confrontation in the first place; it became a military op as soon as the BC's started to engage; finishing the mission as soon as possible, and returning to the Fleet is also part of it.

It goes back to Elizabeth's policy regarding Monica and the Talbott Cluster in the first place: not to surrender one inch of Manticoran Sovereignty even if it meant war with the SLN.

The Honorverse is somewhat awash in piracy. Silesian pirates make money off ransoms, and various low-life people attack commercial vessels about everywhere. They weren't particularly capable, and the Manti response was to provide ships to patrol lanes of commerce, and to escort ships in hazardous areas. Mostly, those were once frigates, and light cruisers, with the occasional light or heavy cruiser.

Hostage rescue falls into the domain of "boarding action" and would be a function of the Marines. Supporting the marines with pilots, small craft crew and medical personnel is the Navy; and the Navy officers are the ones to decide to commit to any Marine ops in the first place.

The Honorverse navies we have seen (RMN, IAN) try to re-take any captured ship (like Emerald Dawn) and the RMN has run into the "captured freighter crew" situation before.

Two ways to deal with it; diplomatically, like they did with Byng 60 years ago (a Battle Fleet Captain); or immediately, like Zavala at Saltash. With hostilities already open, they did not need to use clout from the foreign offices to free the crews; and they had enough detail on Sollie military capability not to worry excessively about a confrontation with the usual FF units commonly present.


While the lives of the hostages are important, though, what the navy is doing in this action is enforcing their sovereignty in the face of criminal violations by OFS.

Whether the older frigates had any marines or not is still not in evidence; but Navy officers would have been involved in at least the planning of any of those ops, so they aren't going in blind or completely inexperienced.

And Naval personnel accompanied the marines--to take control of the captured vessel and its critical systems.

We just don't know what the standards are for training for that sort of operation on the Roland; or what RMN doctrine says about it. Might be a few changes in the next destroyer.

YMMV

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:We just don't know what the standards are for training for that sort of operation on the Roland; or what RMN doctrine says about it. Might be a few changes in the next destroyer.

YMMV

Rob

Good points. I think this kind of operation isn't going to stop, and I don't think destroyers (or whatever the small-end hyper-capable warship ends up being called) are going to avoid it. I figure their options are:
1 - Hearns Doctrine - have plenty naval officers and ratings trained and equipped to do this sort of thing more often, in addition to regular duties.
2 - The Return of the Marines - having Marines aboard even the smallest ships again, trained and equipped for this sort of thing in addition to integral membership in the ship-side functioning of even these smaller-crewed ships. (These two options are very nearly the same - the name and uniform are the chief variation, and maybe emphasis.)
3 - Automation for Boarders - apply that increased use of automation here too as both a force multiplier and to have specialist tools for that specialist sort of job. (And of course, training to operate it, so in that sense, it shades into the other two options.)

I don't think they are realistically going to be able to accept or interested in choosing:
4 - All We Have is Hammers: You Are All Nails - in which every such confrontation has ship-based weapons applied to it somehow
or 5 - Kamerlings All Over - in which specialized ships with generous marine complements (including specially trained hostage rescue teams) are the only ones sent to handle any situation which may end up like this.

Neither of those suit RMN tradition at all, or the political needs of the SEM.

Even having a dedicated Hostage Rescue Team is not a magical wand of hostage rescue. When I was in, I had a friend in a Marine HRT. They had a saying. "It sucks to be the hostage."

Even the best dedicated military HRTs tend to end up with almost a 30% hostage casualty rating. The point of a military HRT is to end the hostage situation with out directly killing hostages. Getting the hostages out alive is a secondary consideration. Getting the HRT out alive is a slightly higher priority than the hostages. The top number one priority is to get the hostages out of the control of the hostage takers, and the easiest way to do that is to kill or capture the hostage takers.

crewdude48 wrote:Even having a dedicated Hostage Rescue Team is not a magical wand of hostage rescue. When I was in, I had a friend in a Marine HRT. They had a saying. "It sucks to be the hostage."

Even the best dedicated military HRTs tend to end up with almost a 30% hostage casualty rating. The point of a military HRT is to end the hostage situation with out directly killing hostages. Getting the hostages out alive is a secondary consideration. Getting the HRT out alive is a slightly higher priority than the hostages. The top number one priority is to get the hostages out of the control of the hostage takers, and the easiest way to do that is to kill or capture the hostage takers.

Well - and/or the hostages, that would accomplish it too, and it'd eliminate all the danger to the HRT. (Odd feeling - it's hard to read that as other than "hormone replacement therapy", and that's just not right in this context, at all.)

So it comes down to a balancing act among differing priorities in a difficult, ultimately unique situation against opposition outside your control. Under those circumstances, if nothing goes badly wrong, it's a rare and lucky happenstance, and someone, somewhere not involved is sure to be happy to second-guess the people who had to make the decisions then and there.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In this discussion between Torlek and, apparently, everyone else, no one is bringing up the matter of his basic assumptions; that "hostage rescue" is a rare occurance that requires specialists. Or that the lives of the hostages are Zavala's principal responsibility.

While the focus in the thread is on the military risks of hostage taking, one of the paramount responsibilities of Zavala is the enforcement of Manticoran sovereignty. It was the refusal to honor that sovereignty (and all their treaty obligations) that led to the confrontation in the first place; it became a military op as soon as the BC's started to engage; finishing the mission as soon as possible, and returning to the Fleet is also part of it.

It goes back to Elizabeth's policy regarding Monica and the Talbott Cluster in the first place: not to surrender one inch of Manticoran Sovereignty even if it meant war with the SLN.

The Honorverse is somewhat awash in piracy. Silesian pirates make money off ransoms, and various low-life people attack commercial vessels about everywhere. They weren't particularly capable, and the Manti response was to provide ships to patrol lanes of commerce, and to escort ships in hazardous areas. Mostly, those were once frigates, and light cruisers, with the occasional light or heavy cruiser.

Hostage rescue falls into the domain of "boarding action" and would be a function of the Marines. Supporting the marines with pilots, small craft crew and medical personnel is the Navy; and the Navy officers are the ones to decide to commit to any Marine ops in the first place.

The Honorverse navies we have seen (RMN, IAN) try to re-take any captured ship (like Emerald Dawn) and the RMN has run into the "captured freighter crew" situation before.

Two ways to deal with it; diplomatically, like they did with Byng 60 years ago (a Battle Fleet Captain); or immediately, like Zavala at Saltash. With hostilities already open, they did not need to use clout from the foreign offices to free the crews; and they had enough detail on Sollie military capability not to worry excessively about a confrontation with the usual FF units commonly present.


While the lives of the hostages are important, though, what the navy is doing in this action is enforcing their sovereignty in the face of criminal violations by OFS.

Whether the older frigates had any marines or not is still not in evidence; but Navy officers would have been involved in at least the planning of any of those ops, so they aren't going in blind or completely inexperienced.

And Naval personnel accompanied the marines--to take control of the captured vessel and its critical systems.

We just don't know what the standards are for training for that sort of operation on the Roland; or what RMN doctrine says about it. Might be a few changes in the next destroyer.

YMMV

Rob

IIRC Terekov took a COLAC along which not only had LACs, but a significant force of marines. I'm thinking that Zuvala could have used those marines to good effect. What happened on Shona station did have an improvised feel to it even though it worked out well. I guess marines aren't the only ones who must "adapt, improvise and overcome." I wonder if Mike put that on her list of things we learned from the experience and will do a bit differently next time.

Don