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Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER

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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by dwileye13   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:38 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Well, the USS "Monitor" sunk in the definitely coastal waters of Cape Hatters. ;) So, if the Charis insist on having the HMS "Marhy Sue" in underwater actions...


Comparisons to the Monitor are Apples to Pineapples. These are not experimental revelations of engineering but engineered vessels that are built for purpose. If you have problems with the technical detail, remember if they run into weather and a fleet at the same time they have the sea worthiness and power to avoid as well as to attack as per the situation.

Let us see how RFC applies these war tools before we rush to judgement.
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by EdThomas   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:58 pm

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dwileye13 wrote:SNIP
There are no more waters in all of Charis that are better described as coastal waters as Gulf of Dohlar, Hankey Sound, Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess. This is where they will dominate the seas and control all ocean commerce to a great degree.


The term “coastal waters” is being thrown around rather casually. “Coastal”, as it seems to be used here, implies “narrow and shallow”. Depth of water on nautical charts is shown by color. Safehold standard seems to be the shallower the water, the darker the shading.

We need to add in the concept of “tide” to fully appreciate what “coastal waters” indicate. Tide is the regular rise and fall of ocean waters. The depths shown on nautical charts (sailors refer to maps as charts )are all given at a specific time in the tide cycle, usually either at high tide or low tide. E,g, on a “low tide” chart, the depth shown is the only time the water is actually that deep. At all other times the depth is greater at that spot. For an area with a 15 ft tide, the depth of water shown as a 10 ft spot on the chart will be 25 ft at high tide.

Tide is not current. Configuration of the land creates what are referred to by landsmen as “tidal” currents. Open the map and look at Schwei Bay. Note the narrow entrance (Schweimount Passage), and the 2 very narrow spots south of the entrance. When the tide is rising, the level of the entire bay will be moving to a level 15ft higher. The reverse flow of the ebbing tide will bring the level back to 10 ft at our spot, The "tidal current” is the flow of water into and out of embayments on the coast. As with pipes and hoses, the pressure increases as the amount of the flow increases. The speed of the water flowing in or out (the current)will increase at narrow spots. Schwei Passage is going to be a wild place with the whole Bay passing through there twice every tide cycle. The entrance to the Bay of Bess will experience a lot of “tidal” action as the tide rises and falls.
Steam powered vessels have a huge advantage over sail in coastal waters because they can move against the tidal currents when sail can only do so if the winds are right.

The map shows areas of shallower depths away from land. These are called “shoals” or “banks”. As the tide ebbs (drops) over these areas the waves on the water's surface change which makes shoal areas easy to spot (in daylight) Ship's navigators and captains know where they are, where the shallow areas are (the Archangels left very detailed maps) and the time of the tidal cycle. Ships can operate (very carefully) in shoal waters.

It's premature to assume that water depth increases slowly or quickly as we move away from the land. Generally the near shore bottom will have a shape similar to the land that comes into the water. A flat plain on the shore is likely to have a slowly increasing depth in the water that mariners will treat cautiously. A steep slope to the water will most likely have water depth increasing much faster than the the flat plain area. Unfortunately, we have no idea of the topography is in these areas to give us clues to the shape of the sea bottom. Sailors treat any approach to land as a risky.

The ICN will know of any areas with rapidly shoaling bottom based on the accuracy of the Archangels maps and the fact the merchant fleet will have been sharing notes with other merchants and the Navy on the areas they go through for centuries so any area where there has been significant change from the original maps will be known.
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by dwileye13   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:25 pm

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EdThomas wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:SNIP
There are no more waters in all of Charis that are better described as coastal waters as Gulf of Dohlar, Hankey Sound, Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess. This is where they will dominate the seas and control all ocean commerce to a great degree.


The term “coastal waters” is being thrown around rather casually. “Coastal”, as it seems to be used here, implies “narrow and shallow”. Depth of water on nautical charts is shown by color. Safehold standard seems to be the shallower the water, the darker the shading.


SNIP


What I meant by Coastal Waters is that band from mean high water to 50 or 100 miles even 200 miles. Within a days steaming to protected waters and within range common sealanes and ports. Those areas which commerce and enemy vessels can be interdicted. I imagine most sea traffic is in coastal waters due to the lack of navigation instruments. Dead reconning and sailing by landmarks would be typical.

Travel to those areas across greater bodies of water would be planned as well as possible. In the Gulf of Dohlar I think you would have the ideal environment to use the Delthak II's (calling them Riverboats is a misnomer IMO)
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by jgnfld   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:27 pm

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EdThomas wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:SNIP
There are no more waters in all of Charis that are better described as coastal waters as Gulf of Dohlar, Hankey Sound, Gulf of Tanshar and the Bay of Bess. This is where they will dominate the seas and control all ocean commerce to a great degree.


The term “coastal waters” is being thrown around rather casually. “Coastal”, as it seems to be used here, implies “narrow and shallow”. Depth of water on nautical charts is shown by color. Safehold standard seems to be the shallower the water, the darker the shading...

Yes.

BTW, I'm unclear on tides. How big is the moon on Safehold??? We have had many references to tidal flats extending far out during low tide.

If the conventions are the same and there is a significant moon, I would expect all the Gulf of Dohlar to have wicked tides on the order of Fundy as you point out up by Bess but also down by Silkiah. Probably not a fun place for sail-only ships at the best of times and we all know disaster can happen there of course.

Ice Wind passage might be interesting as well if one considers how the tides work in the NW high latitudes of the Atlantic in various places in the Canadian archipelago.
Last edited by jgnfld on Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by jgnfld   » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:52 pm

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dwileye13 wrote:...

What I meant by Coastal Waters is that band from mean high water to 50 or 100 miles even 200 miles. Within a days steaming to protected waters and within range common sealanes and ports. Those areas which commerce and enemy vessels can be interdicted. I imagine most sea traffic is in coastal waters due to the lack of navigation instruments. Dead reconning and sailing by landmarks would be typical.

Travel to those areas across greater bodies of water would be planned as well as possible. In the Gulf of Dohlar I think you would have the ideal environment to use the Delthak II's (calling them Riverboats is a misnomer IMO)


Between the currents and the likely swell from the prevailing westerlies coming down the bay, I'm not sure rivercraft are greatly suited to the Dohlar side. The Mathys side would be OK probably. Just having land in proximity may or may not be protective. Consider the Bay of Biscay as one example.
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:39 am

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Hi Dilandu,

Just how exactly is the church galleon a threat to the ironclad in the first place with 20 pound 'Lizards' on the gun deck and 9 pound Falcons on the spar deck?

If its too stormy to open the lower deck gun ports, the 9 pounder falcons are going to do exactly what to the ironclad?

Seriously suggesting anyone would attempt to board the ironclad under those conditions deserves to drown before his men.

I'd expect any Charisian ship captain to drill for the worst including opening and closing the gun-ports in less than ideal conditions before meeting them, and thus avoiding your scenario.

A better question might be how long does it take to open, fire, and close the gun ports; which given the machinery that does that, might start on the up-roll and finish well before plunging into the sea.

Given all the second flight 'River' class ironclads, I suspect we'll have a demonstration of an action 'at sea' at some point in HFQ or the next book.

L


Dilandu wrote:- Aha, there is a church galleon underway! - the captain of the charisian river ironclad HMS "Marhy Sue" grinned, - Prepare to battle!

The crew of the HMS "Marhy Sue" was less enthusiastic. The sea was rough, and the waves was high enough to constantly wash the ironclad's casemate. Still... it was a Church galleon in sea, and the enemy already started to fire from their upper deck guns. The lower deck gunports of the Church galleon was, for some reason, closed tightly.

- Turn to starboard! - ordered the captain of the HMS "Marhy Sue", - Clear for action! Open the gunports...

The sudden squall was simply a unfortunate accident. The HMS "Marhy Sue" was caught lurched in the circulation, and her low-placed gunports scooped water... not too much, but enought for the small-draft, low-board ship to roll.

And did not straighten

///

...- What are the accursed heretics doing? - the captain of Navy of God galleon "Langhorne's Wisdom" lowered his spyglass, - For what reason they opened gunports on that... that ship? In that weather? On the ship that low?
- Surely, the Shain-Wei must affect their mind, - the puzzled chaplain muttered, - But even for heretics... it was stupid
- Pull the boats! - ordered captain, - Search for the surviors! Even the heretics don't deserve to die such stupidly...

:D (waive all rights, just humor)
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by Castenea   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:47 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Dilandu,

Just how exactly is the church galleon a threat to the ironclad in the first place with 20 pound 'Lizards' on the gun deck and 9 pound Falcons on the spar deck?

If its too stormy to open the lower deck gun ports, the 9 pounder falcons are going to do exactly what to the ironclad?

Seriously suggesting anyone would attempt to board the ironclad under those conditions deserves to drown before his men.

I'd expect any Charisian ship captain to drill for the worst including opening and closing the gun-ports in less than ideal conditions before meeting them, and thus avoiding your scenario.

A better question might be how long does it take to open, fire, and close the gun ports; which given the machinery that does that, might start on the up-roll and finish well before plunging into the sea.

Given all the second flight 'River' class ironclads, I suspect we'll have a demonstration of an action 'at sea' at some point in HFQ or the next book.

L

Have you ever been on a war ship with muzzle loaders? It is problematic at best to load the guns with the gun ports closed. In storm conditions the guns would be snugged tight to prevent the horrors of a loose cannon, preventing any working of the guns.
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:02 am

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lyonheart wrote:I'd expect any Charisian ship captain to drill for the worst including opening and closing the gun-ports in less than ideal conditions before meeting them, and thus avoiding your scenario.


Well, if the charisian ship captain is insane, he may try it, With predictable consequences.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:29 am

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Dilandu wrote:Well, if the charisian ship captain is insane, he may try it, With predictable consequences.


So why do you assume Charis would give command of any ironclad/riverclad to insane or moronic captains?
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:37 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dilandu wrote:Well, if the charisian ship captain is insane, he may try it, With predictable consequences.


So why do you assume Charis would give command of any ironclad/riverclad to insane or moronic captains?


I assume that no sane captain of river ironclad would make an attempt to fire his guns in open sea.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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