New Weapons - Armed Recon Drones

In At All Costs we had our first introduction to the armed reconissance drone systems known as Mistletoe, used to hunt down Moriatry fire control platforms and so weaken the Havenite system defences.

Now with Admirals Hemphill and Foracker getting their brains together I suspect we are going to see a lot of drool-worthy weapons and other tech coming in for the Grand Alliance. Hemphill was no doubt behind Mistletoe and with a mind like hers I suspect she started seeing possibilities. Single recon drones (even as a shell) simply couldnt carry a missile big enough to damage any ship without compromising its own stealth, but what if it works with another component.

After some reflecting I have come up with my own applied version of this tech which I have dubbed "Mistletoe & Holly" (bit of black humour here). Basically we have an advanced stealthed recon drone, call it Mistletoe Type II, equipped with all the best in Manticoran stealth and sensor tech yet built around a single shot missile tube containing a lighter short ranged version of the Apollo control node. This is reporting back to "Holly", a series of stealthed missile pods controlled by a lightweight stealthed "Donkey" platform handeler, equipped with a powerplant, firecontrol links, and a compressed FTL comm.

The idea is that these "armed" drones can be sent in quietly ahead of a main force, identify targets and then attack at close/point-blank range before an opponent can even react. Imagine scaring a Solly fleet by hitting a specific opponent without the incoming GA ships even firing their "god-awful supermissiles" (thank you Pritchard). In addition these types of units would be one way of countering the stealthed spider-drive ships of the Mesan Alignment once they find a way of tracing them (which im sure is a prioritiy project they will have Simones working on very soon). This could also create new roles for certain destroyers, as dedicated recon/attack drone controllers.

The development of MDM's, missile pods, and pod-layers clearly parrellels how cruise missiles replaced big guns, and the spider-drive resembles submarine warfare, albeit in space. Why not start bringing in the new (and still controversal) weapon drones of today into the series. Does anyone else have any similar ideas?

This sounds very, very complex to set up and honestly I don't think setting it up would be worth the trouble when the GA is on the offensive. I could easily be wrong though.

My impression was that the Apollo Control missile was so large because it had to be. Since it takes the space of two missile in a pod, I'm not sure just how much smaller it could be made. Not to mention putting a launcher on a stealthed drone. IIRC, Mistletoe was a drone with a warhead attached and the drone executed the attack and was destroyed in the process. So adding a launcher for a Apollo missile to a drone, even if the could be made smaller, may not be possible.

Now, putting a warhead with a CM drive on a drone, ala the Cataphract, would probably work well. Have the drone sneak in and the use the CM drive for the final run to the target. The reason the stealthed weaponized drone didn't work when the SL tried to sell it to the Peeps was that final run to the target. Using a CM for the final run after the drone got close enough might do the trick.

Now the idea of a stealthed donkey/drone to pull missiles around might be useful, it the towing of the pods doesn't compromise the stealth. If that big IF is solved, then being able to run out some pods on a different bearing than your approaching ships could have all sorts of possibilities. Especially, if the pods are Apollo pods.

If you can get stealthed recon platforms within 10K kilometers of an SLN ship, and missile attack range is 30K kilometers, then a recon drone with a laser head can get into attack range without much trouble, and almost certainly for a down-the-throat shot instead of through the sidewalls.

(Though the Havenites didn't seem to be worried about Mistletoe attacks on mobile platforms, which suggests that either their sensor tech, or their sensor TECHS, are better than Solarian ones. Or else Ghost Rider recon drones have continued to get very much better in just the last few years...)

Note that the Mesan torpedoes are basically the same thing: remote platforms with high-powered weapons, just using spider drive instead of stealth systems.

Kizarvexis wrote:My impression was that the Apollo Control missile was so large because it had to be. Since it takes the space of two missile in a pod, I'm not sure just how much smaller it could be made.

Agreed, the Apollo missile is much larger but that was a case of adding complex fire control system and comm systems onto a triple stage MDM. Every version of electronics usually gets smaller with each iteration, and my little scheme involved either a single or at most dual drive missile in the Mistletoe II. Apollo was intended to be fired in relitively close proximity to the firing ship and get to long range under its own power. Thats not the case with Armed Drones since they get that close on their own before firing.

Kizarvexis wrote:Not to mention putting a launcher on a stealthed drone. IIRC, Mistletoe was a drone with a warhead attached and the drone executed the attack and was destroyed in the process. So adding a launcher for a Apollo missile to a drone, even if the could be made smaller, may not be possible.

Thats why my suggestion wasnt a "drone with a missile launcher" it is a mobile missile launcher with a drones components strapped on. I agree though that that would require some experimentation and could have some major flaws if done wrong but thats just the sort of project you would give to Foraker.

Kizarvexis wrote:Now, putting a warhead with a CM drive on a drone, ala the Cataphract, would probably work well. Have the drone sneak in and the use the CM drive for the final run to the target. The reason the stealthed weaponized drone didn't work when the SL tried to sell it to the Peeps was that final run to the target. Using a CM for the final run after the drone got close enough might do the trick.

If you are talking about what the Peep sponsered Masadans used in the Cromerty assassination, then I had forgotten all about that. Thanks for reminding me.

Kizarvexis wrote:Now the idea of a stealthed donkey/drone to pull missiles around might be useful, it the towing of the pods doesn't compromise the stealth. If that big IF is solved, then being able to run out some pods on a different bearing than your approaching ships could have all sorts of possibilities. Especially, if the pods are Apollo pods.

My thoughts exactly. The Manties already terrify the SLN with their existing tricks (as shown by Capt Zavala during the incident at Saltash), now imagine firing pods at point blank range on an enemy from completly the opposite direction. A enemy is defending or attacking out from a planet, when suddenly they get a salvo of missiles right up the kilt from the very planet they are trying to defend.

The reason I added the "Holly" component was to enable the drop off and distribution of pods on more complex manouvers. Lets face it its too difficult for too little gain to actually put whole impeller drives on missile pods, that would screw up the stealth. The reason the Mesan Operation Oyster Bay didnt was that they could just allow the pods to coast in by themselves and have their fire control be run through the Graser Torpedoes and remote sensor platfroms their Ghost ships deployed.

tonyz wrote:If you can get stealthed recon platforms within 10K kilometers of an SLN ship, and missile attack range is 30K kilometers, then a recon drone with a laser head can get into attack range without much trouble, and almost certainly for a down-the-throat shot instead of through the sidewalls.

And be a completely unexpected attack method, thats why im sure Hemphill would have been turning the idea over slowly in her head. She focused on solving the system wide fire control platform problem (finding Moriarty) first through given what it did to Eighth fleet in the Battle of Solon. The problem is that a single drone is quite small and wouldnt carry the right level of ordance to be used on bigger ships even working in numbers (plus you would loose all your sensor coverage). Thats why I dded the pod "Holly" component to allow one drone to co-ordinate larger attacks.

tonyz wrote:(Though the Havenites didn't seem to be worried about Mistletoe attacks on mobile platforms, which suggests that either their sensor tech, or their sensor TECHS, are better than Solarian ones. Or else Ghost Rider recon drones have continued to get very much better in just the last few years...).

Plase Correct me if im wrong but the Havenite didnt know about Mistletoe until Solon. And in the Battle of Manticore they where on the offensive and didnt need Moriarty. Thats why Hemphill/Forackers first brainchild (Mycroft) was a combined Keyhole/Moriarty system, it combined the long range FTL attack control of one with the massed system defense control component of the second.

tonyz wrote:Note that the Mesan torpedoes are basically the same thing: remote platforms with high-powered weapons, just using spider drive instead of stealth systems.

Yes indeed, and with the success of the Yawata Strike it only makes sense that Manticore comes up with its own version, if only as a study so they can work out how to defend themselves and their new allies against it. I suspect we shall see a few more Oyster Bay style attacks as the RF moves forward, as they try to scare up other systems and weaken the SLN.

You seem to be considering very short range attacks such as mistletoe was at Lovet. No problem with this idea... but why bother combining Apollo with it? My understanding of Apollo is that it uses ftl to provide workable fire control out to about 80 million klicks. If the concept is stealth, then the instant the thing starts kicking out any ftl pulses, then the stealth goes out the window.

But then again, if Apollo only functioned as a receiver and didn't have to transmit to other missiles in its control function, that might be overcome. But still, rather than Apollo, use an onboard AI predownloaded with attack profiles, you might not need the onboard ftl at all. They could be considered a fire and forget....

Don

In My Antimissile Anti LAC thread I suggest a Mine like drone. Armed with a PD laser.

Valen123456 wrote:

tonyz wrote:(Though the Havenites didn't seem to be worried about Mistletoe attacks on mobile platforms, which suggests that either their sensor tech, or their sensor TECHS, are better than Solarian ones. Or else Ghost Rider recon drones have continued to get very much better in just the last few years...).

Plase Correct me if im wrong but the Havenite didnt know about Mistletoe until Solon. And in the Battle of Manticore they where on the offensive and didnt need Moriarty. Thats why Hemphill/Forackers first brainchild (Mycroft) was a combined Keyhole/Moriarty system, it combined the long range FTL attack control of one with the massed system defense control component of the second.

I was referring to Theisman's post-Solom analysis, from At All Costs, chapter 58:

“We should have realized that sooner or later they were going to strap weapons onto their recon drones. They've demonstrated they can operate them deep inside our defended areas with virtual impunity, and they probably took a certain pleasure from applying a variant of the same technique Saint-Just used to destroy Elizabeth's yacht in Yeltsin. The bad news is how close they can get them; the good news—such as it is—is that, even so, they can't get them all the way into attack range in stealth. They still have to get into range to execute their attacks, and not even Manty stealth systems can hide them during the last hundred thousand kilometers or so of their runs. They don't have the sort of acceleration rates missiles do, either, and to be used properly, they have to attack virtually from rest, or else they can't loiter until the proper moment. So they have relatively low closing velocities when they come in, and they can be engaged by counter-missiles and standard point defense, now that we know they're out there. Our intercept probabilities won't be good, especially given how little warning we'll have between the moment their[…]”

It looks like the Havenites can spot these weapons (or think they can) from just outside point defense range, but evidently they have practice tracking Ghost Rider recon drones. We've seen a number of occasions when Sollies haven't been remotely aware of Manty recon platforms within 10K of their ships. I'm guessing Sollie software packages haven't been tweaked to look for such signatures. Given how many missile hits one needs to mission-kill even a Sollie SD, one Mistletoe platform won't kill ships, but it could be a nasty surprise to start a battle, or to hit a ship just before the mistle wave comes into range -- though you have to balance the additional damage versus the loss of info from the recon platform.

n7axw wrote:You seem to be considering very short range attacks such as mistletoe was at Lovet. No problem with this idea... but why bother combining Apollo with it? My understanding of Apollo is that it uses ftl to provide workable fire control out to about 80 million klicks. If the concept is stealth, then the instant the thing starts kicking out any ftl pulses, then the stealth goes out the window.

But then again, if Apollo only functioned as a receiver and didn't have to transmit to other missiles in its control function, that might be overcome. But still, rather than Apollo, use an onboard AI predownloaded with attack profiles, you might not need the onboard ftl at all. They could be considered a fire and forget....

Don

Thanks for the breakdown. The FTL component was to allow the drones to trigger and control attacks from Holly from a distance. It would allow the controlling fleet to basically deploy a weapons package, scan the system, and hit what needed hitting without needing to get their warships into range, or even allow opponents to sense when an attack was coming in.

Also arnt Grav-pulses at least partially directable, if aimed right the opponent doesnt detect them, but it does depend on angles and positioning.

The AI approach is the one the Mesans used for their Oyster Bay fire control since they dont have FTL controls themselves. But I conseed your point, Manties are not in favour of making their plans or tech overly complicated however advanced it might be. If they can do things without needing to put in too much flashy tech then they probably wont try. The problem with AI controlled tech however is that it can only respond to defined parameters, and you have to make doubly sure you have accounted for everything, especially for things that throw round big nasty missiles.