Honorverse ramblings and musings

n7axw wrote:I do remember some text ev about Ghost Rider drones being used to assist with fire control but I don't remember where. I don't think it was with Apollo.

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At Spindle, Terekov's squadron was able to utilize Apollo, but only with light speed links, not ftl.

Don

IIRC it is specifically mentioned that RD information cut the command loop for the Apollo missiles to half of what Adm Crandalls force would have to deal with.

It is mentioned in several places that the tactical information provided by RDs over FTL links cut the command loop in half.

I don't believe that there is any instance of transmitting fire-control updates through an RD or Hermes Bouy, just faster tactical information to update through dedicated fire-control channels.

Weird Harold wrote:I don't believe that there is any instance of transmitting fire-control updates through an RD or Hermes Bouy, just faster tactical information to update through dedicated fire-control channels.

8th fleet engaging 2nd used Hermes.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I don't believe that there is any instance of transmitting fire-control updates through an RD or Hermes Bouy, just faster tactical information to update through dedicated fire-control channels.

8th fleet engaging 2nd used Hermes.

Hermes and RDs are unable to relay targeting data to missiles. That is stated a few times. The Hermes was used afterwards for the conversation only.

But yes, RD's have been used a few times to cut the control loop in half.
I want to say it was used in monica by Terekhov, a simulation by Oversteegen, and then in New Tuscany by Gold Peak...
At spindle, apollo missles were used instead of(or in addition to) for the same effect.

May be I'm just missing something. Tester knows that I didn't formally enroll in the "New Manty Ships" thread. But I did crypt the course. Though I dropped it before the term ended.

So thanks for entertaining my notion. However, what I initially proposed seems doable with the current Apollo configuration. If not, a new variant of Apollo is a Bolthole's throw out of off the shelf parts.

In the final Battle of Manticore, Honor used the long reach of Apollo to destroy Chin's Second Fleet, then fired sixty Apollo missiles at Tourville's Fifth. Both attacks were from impossibly long ranges that employed a ballistic component. IIRC, Honor fired out of the RZ?

At any rate, with potential like that of Apollo, what's the difference of firing the missiles immediately versus deploying shoals of them at a strategic location, then activating them later on in an engagement to be fired then? With that tactic, a single ship can potentially mousetrap. The longbow of Apollo can be used in so many ways. I tink I taw textev stating that Honor and, I think Alice, Truman were still investigating the implications and possibilities of Apollo.

I wouldn't be surprised if my little trick isn't already tucked up Honor's sleeve and she just hasn't pulled it yet.

Or perhaps it'll be used by Gold Peak in one of her dustups where the gloves come off and mayhem comes from up her sleeves.

I just get the impression, from textev, that the ability of Apollo will be limited only by one's imagination, for awhile. From what I read, even RMN officers continue to be amazed by Apollo. When Honor came through the junction, cavalry bugle blowing, I remember someone saying "what just happened?" And "I don't blame the Peeps for 'wedge striking'."

Paraphrased for effect.


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kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I don't believe that there is any instance of transmitting fire-control updates through an RD or Hermes Bouy, just faster tactical information to update through dedicated fire-control channels.

8th fleet engaging 2nd used Hermes.

They weren't controlling missiles through the Hermes.

I just don't think Apollo has reached his peak. There are still yet undiscovered ways he can be used. Apollo hasn't even come close to shooting his wad yet. Unless the SLN find ways to make him impotent.

When will Apollo peak?

cthia wrote:At any rate, with potential like that of Apollo, what's the difference of firing the missiles immediately versus deploying shoals of them at a strategic location, then activating them later on in an engagement to be fired then? With that tactic, a single ship can potentially mousetrap.

Unless you're dragging around ammo ships, you go into battle with what's in your magazine. If you drop a shoal of pods, you can only use them if your opponent cooperates and you have available control links to launch them.

Mines are cheaper than Apollo Pods and don't need to be commanded when to attack. Apollo pods do have a longer range than mines, but they're more effective when launched from a ship that can maneuver rather than from a fixed location. (The four-stage Apollo System Defense missiles still require a launch command and target specification, although they are intended to be launched from fixed positions)

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:
At any rate, with potential like that of Apollo, what's the difference of firing the missiles immediately versus deploying shoals of them at a strategic location, then activating them later on in an engagement to be fired then? With that tactic, a single ship can potentially mousetrap.

Unless you're dragging around ammo ships, you go into battle with what's in your magazine. If you drop a shoal of pods, you can only use them if your opponent cooperates and you have available control links to launch them.

Mines are cheaper than Apollo Pods and don't need to be commanded when to attack. Apollo pods do have a longer range than mines, but they're more effective when launched from a ship that can maneuver rather than from a fixed location. (The four-stage Apollo System Defense missiles still require a launch command and target specification, although they are intended to be launched from fixed positions)

I see your point but that just requires an adjustment of the tactic. As I recall, in the "Battle of Manticore" McKeon was only firing a single missile at a time which was wreaking havoc. Perhaps dropping shoals of pods is too ambitious, but certainly clumps of say sixty missiles total is even better. An SD(P) could theoretically litter them SOBs all over the quadrant. Smaller numbers would also be less detectable.

There isn't much cooperation needed from enemy ships. Except to travel far enough in-system to nullify benefit of hypering out. Apollo can be launced virtually anytime anywhere with a ballistic component. Heck, White Haven did it with a conventional missile that, indirectly, saved his wife to be's ass in On Basilisk Station.

It fact, if it proves to be feasible, tactical doctrine could include dropping a clump or two off after translating into an enemy system. Therefore, when some ambitious enemy ships translates in behind you with a "surprise."

Well "I guess the surprise is on you."

Launch command and firing specification can come from any ship in the quadrant that's equipped to fire them. It also seems that odds of an up the kilt shot would be increased. Esponentially with the number of clumps seeded.

Mine-layers aren't always in your order of battle. And mines are more of a static weapon in your tactical doctrine. Pods could, overnight, assume a more dynamic, fexible smart mine role.

Edit:
Your input on Apollo being more effective if ship launched is for certain. Ship's speed is imparted unto the missile. I am acknowledging that the abilities of Apollo will be diminished in this capacity, but sometimes, as I posted a few ago, a knight is all you need on the chessboard, rather a queen.

Especially if the knight in question is actually a trojan horse.

cthia wrote:May be I'm just missing something. Tester knows that I didn't formally enroll in the "New Manty Ships" thread. But I did crypt the course. Though I dropped it before the term ended.

So thanks for entertaining my notion. However, what I initially proposed seems doable with the current Apollo configuration. If not, a new variant of Apollo is a Bolthole's throw out of off the shelf parts.

In the final Battle of Manticore, Honor used the long reach of Apollo to destroy Chin's Second Fleet, then fired sixty Apollo missiles at Tourville's Fifth. Both attacks were from impossibly long ranges that employed a ballistic component. IIRC, Honor fired out of the RZ?

At any rate, with potential like that of Apollo, what's the difference of firing the missiles immediately versus deploying shoals of them at a strategic location, then activating them later on in an engagement to be fired then? With that tactic, a single ship can potentially mousetrap. The longbow of Apollo can be used in so many ways. I tink I taw textev stating that Honor and, I think Alice, Truman were still investigating the implications and possibilities of Apollo.

Just remember that RFC said that the super long range Apollo shot was, in a lot of respects, a bluff.

8th fleet could have destroyed the remaining Havenite forces, but not from that range. They'd have had to close the range significantly to get useful FTL firecontrol. I assume that's why Honor fired to miss - it made it seem like a deliberate show of force; when instead she was pretty sure she could avoid hitting anything at that range, but not at all sure she could hit anything if she wanted to.

(Which come to think of it, it more evidence that the Apollo missiles don't have a particularly effective fire-and-forget capability. At the admittedly ultra-long range of 150 million km, even given full shipboard fire control until the point the Apollo FTL signals faded out the missiles weren't capable of finishing an effective attack using internal sensors, guidance, and "AI")



Now that effective control distance limitation appears to purely be due to the range (sensitivity and power) of the FTL transceivers in the Apollo control missiles. If you have Mycroft style fire control relay nodes scattered around you can control system defense Apollo pods halfway across the system with less transmission lag than a mid-course pre-Apollo MDM. That 150 Mkm shot is only 8 seconds FTL lag -- if only the signals reached that far.

cthia wrote:I see your point but that just requires an adjustment of the tactic. As I recall, in the "Battle of Manticore" McKeon was only firing a single missile at a time which was wreaking havoc. Perhaps dropping shoals of pods is too ambitious, but certainly clumps of say sixty missiles total is even better. An SD(P) could theoretically litter them SOBs all over the quadrant. Smaller numbers would also be less detectable.

McKeon was firing Apollo missiles, which come for a pod in groups of nine. He was firing at a single ship at a time, but Apollo can't be fired as single missiles.

You may be confusing things with Second Hancock where Alice Truman fires single ghost rider missiles from Minotaur to support her LAC squadrons.