Battle of Manticore

cthia wrote:Is like jealousy? I'll never figure that out.

You´re trying to overanalyse instead of seeing the obvious meaning.

To say it differently, neither schadenfreude or jealousy is something normal for me. Ie., they´re not my thing.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I also wonder what would have happened if Honor had been in system, seeing CIC's report of "Sweet Jesus." Who would have taken the lead? Taken point. Would D'Orville have deferred to her? What would have been the plan? Whose plan? BoM just gives so much to consider.

Of course, the Havenites fought a good battle. Lady luck was an unfair opponent.

This is why there is only one Admiral of the Fleet in the RMN. Home Fleet's CO will be giving the orders until his flagship is destroyed or crippled, the next ranking Admiral(or captain, if the situation has really gone to pot) with a functional flagship under her feet takes over. That's how the military hierarchy works, though in practice COs of widely separated units may have to act independently, even with the FTL comms.

If Eighth Fleet was already in-system and in formation with Home Fleet, Second Fleet would've been toast, probably with D'Orville devolving tactical command to Honor, similar to Khumalo and Terekhov at the Battle of Spindle, or Kuzak and McKeon after Fifth fleet jumped in. When nearly forty of what appears to be Home Fleet's wallers start tossing Apollo salvos, the RHN would have broken off their attack.

The subject of military hierarchy reminds me of a question I wanted to ask. When I re-read AAC, when the Havenites were attacking Manticore, Kuzak mentions that she can't give Honor orders but is cut off before explaining why. I know she's vastly superior to Honor in terms of seniority so why couldn't she give orders to Honor?

Kuzak isn't in Honor's chain of command. Kuzak is the CO of Third Fleet, and she reports to the First Space Lord. Honor is on the same level as Kuzak (in that she's CO of Eighth). It should also be noted that Honor is a Fleet Admiral, while Kuzak is "just" an Admiral.

Duckk wrote:Kuzak isn't in Honor's chain of command. Kuzak is the CO of Third Fleet, and she reports to the First Space Lord. Honor is on the same level as Kuzak (in that she's CO of Eighth). It should also be noted that Honor is a Fleet Admiral, while Kuzak is "just" an Admiral.

Thanks for the answer, Duckk. I thought Fleet Admiral was only applied if you were CO of Home Fleet? Also, I understand that Kuzak is not in Honor's chain of command but how is the chain of command between admirals determined when there's more than one fleet in a system? It seems like there should be some hierarchy so that different fleets aren't just haring off doing their own thing. I figured that even though both Kuzak and Honor are admirals in different fleets, relative seniority should still come into play when there is a crisis.

Tenshinai wrote:

cthia wrote:Is like jealousy? I'll never figure that out.

You´re trying to overanalyse instead of seeing the obvious meaning.

To say it differently, neither schadenfreude or jealousy is something normal for me. Ie., they´re not my thing.

Okay, makes sense now. As it stood it was a bit too cerebral for me.

Another consideration. I get the feeling that Honor's mass transit was only the second of its kind attempted. Second only after Hamish set the example? I would think that that would have been an emergency practiced from time to time. Especially because of its danger. Was Honor and Hamish the only two to initiate a mass transit? Honor's being larger of course.

cthia wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:

You´re trying to overanalyse instead of seeing the obvious meaning.

To say it differently, neither schadenfreude or jealousy is something normal for me. Ie., they´re not my thing.

Okay, makes sense now. As it stood it was a bit too cerebral for me.

Another consideration. I get the feeling that Honor's mass transit was only the second of its kind attempted. Second only after Hamish set the example? I would think that that would have been an emergency practiced from time to time. Especially because of its danger. Was Honor and Hamish the only two to initiate a mass transit? Honor's being larger of course.

I would guess no, given that they knew that it was possible, as well as the fact that there had to be an upper limit to how many ships could transit simultaniously. As well, Hamish didn't rush the transit the same way Honor did. Honor took all her ships on one go, Hamish transferred his entire fleet one ship at a time from Trevor's Star to Hancock. Kuzack did the same thing with her ships.

Uroboros wrote:

cthia wrote:Another consideration. I get the feeling that Honor's mass transit was only the second of its kind attempted. Second only after Hamish set the example? I would think that that would have been an emergency practiced from time to time. Especially because of its danger. Was Honor and Hamish the only two to initiate a mass transit? Honor's being larger of course.

I would guess no, given that they knew that it was possible, as well as the fact that there had to be an upper limit to how many ships could transit simultaniously. As well, Hamish didn't rush the transit the same way Honor did. Honor took all her ships on one go, Hamish transferred his entire fleet one ship at a time from Trevor's Star to Hancock. Kuzack did the same thing with her ships.

I never understood why she didn't order all her ships to head for the terminus at "best speed". Send destroyers through until the cruisers get there, send cruisers until the battlecruisers arrive, send battlecruisers until the SDs make it. That would have made better use of transit capacity which was just sitting there unused until the fleet reached it, and provided much greater tactical flexibility at the other end too. They could have started by running off or destroying the Haven battlecruisers that were hanging around watching the Junction.
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"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You can not do that and ever be quite the same again."

Thanks for the answer, Duckk. I thought Fleet Admiral was only applied if you were CO of Home Fleet?

Fleet Admiral is a permanent rank with the insignia consisting of 4 stars in diamond formation. Admiral of the Fleet is for the CO of Home Fleet and is 4 stars in diamond formation with a planet in the center. There can be multiple Fleet Admirals, but only one Admiral of the Fleet.

Also, I understand that Kuzak is not in Honor's chain of command but how is the chain of command between admirals determined when there's more than one fleet in a system? It seems like there should be some hierarchy so that different fleets aren't just haring off doing their own thing. I figured that even though both Kuzak and Honor are admirals in different fleets, relative seniority should still come into play when there is a crisis.

This is slightly conjecture, but it doesn't require any significant prognostication.

Third Fleet is, obviously, the permanently assigned fleet to cover Trevor's Star. As such, Kuzak has command authority in the system and would supersede Honor's if anything was happening there. But since the action is happening in the Manticore system, Kuzak has no obvious authority over Eighth Fleet's actions. Additionally, since Kuzak and Honor are going to be on opposite sides of the terminus, there's really no point one giving the other orders, as it is the RMN's tradition to let the commander on the spot make the decisions.

cthia wrote:Another consideration. I get the feeling that Honor's mass transit was only the second of its kind attempted. Second only after Hamish set the example? I would think that that would have been an emergency practiced from time to time. Especially because of its danger. Was Honor and Hamish the only two to initiate a mass transit? Honor's being larger of course.

You generally don't practice it outside of simulators because of the relatively high risk of a catastrophe. Cycling ships through a wormhole at the maximum possible rate could lead to ships ramming into each other, as was demonstrated during White Haven's scramble to relieve Basilisk.

Imaginos1892 wrote:I never understood why she didn't order all her ships to head for the terminus at "best speed". Send destroyers through until the cruisers get there, send cruisers until the battlecruisers arrive, send battlecruisers until the SDs make it. That would have made better use of transit capacity which was just sitting there unused until the fleet reached it, and provided much greater tactical flexibility at the other end too. They could have started by running off or destroying the Haven battlecruisers that were hanging around watching the Junction.

With loss of more life. Those ships would have just been picked off one by one as they exited the Junction.