Sonja Hemphill

Weird Harold wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:Actually we don't know how much money Young would have had. My guess is not very much. He doesn't seem like the type to set up a rainy day fund, and I suspect most of the family money was linked directly to the North Hollow title. If he was convicted of the capital charges and his father had still died then and there (and I am not convinced he would have) then Young would have been unable to access any of the North Hollow money. It would have all gone with the title, to Stefen. He would have only had the money in his own personal name, and considering his personality type, he probably could not conceive of a reason he would need money outside of the title that would eventually be his.

I get the impression that you think he would have had the twenty to thirty years of appeals and delays a US death sentence entails. Manticore doesn't work that way; I think Pavel would have had about 90 days, while there was an automatic review by the Queen's Bench or RMN equivalent, before he faced a firing squad.

Where did you get that impression? If he was found guilty, I am almost sure that nintey days would be much more than he would have. However capitol punishment works in Manticore, it couldn't work like that in the military. I would be surprised if it took them longer than a month. Heck, until about a century ago, most military courts had the hanging or firing squad before the next day was out.

On the other hand, with even 30 days, access to the family money, and some contacts, he could have put a hit out on Paul and Honor in a fit of spite.

On the gripping hand, he wouldn't have had access to the family money, and I suspect that most of the money he had most of his life basicly came from an unlimited credit card linked to the North Hollow money. I don't think that he, personally, would have had enough money to hire two hits.

crewdude48 wrote:Where did you get that impression?

You (and others) give the impression that Pavel would have had time to marshal resources and find an assassin. More that none of you seem to assert any sense of urgency or time pressure in laying out Pavel's choices.

crewdude48 wrote:On the other hand, with even 30 days, access to the family money, and some contacts, he could have put a hit out on Paul and Honor in a fit of spite.

I don't think Pavel would feel that desperate/spiteful as long as there was any hope of the verdict being overturned on review. He would certainly turn every resource to revenge on Honor once his fate was confirmed, but he wouldn't have the time or inclination to arrange Paul's murder, too, once his fate was confirmed.

crewdude48 wrote:On the gripping hand, he wouldn't have had access to the family money, and I suspect that most of the money he had most of his life basically came from an unlimited credit card linked to the North Hollow money. I don't think that he, personally, would have had enough money to hire two hits.

If he was condemned, he wouldn't worry about saving anything, paying debts or running them up. He'd turn every penny he could lay his hands on, beg, borrow or steal, and call in every favor he could make any kind of claim on. He would probably consider it a bonus if he could cause financial difficulties for Stefan by running up debts Stefan would be responsible for.

He'd be very short of time and unlikely to get lots of cooperation, but he'd make the attempt, even if he had to resort to street-trash hoodlums like the attempt at the restaurant.

Weird Harold wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:Where did you get that impression?

You (and others) give the impression that Pavel would have had time to marshal resources and find an assassin. More that none of you seem to assert any sense of urgency or time pressure in laying out Pavel's choices.

crewdude48 wrote:On the other hand, with even 30 days, access to the family money, and some contacts, he could have put a hit out on Paul and Honor in a fit of spite.

I don't think Pavel would feel that desperate/spiteful as long as there was any hope of the verdict being overturned on review. He would certainly turn every resource to revenge on Honor once his fate was confirmed, but he wouldn't have the time or inclination to arrange Paul's murder, too, once his fate was confirmed.

crewdude48 wrote:On the gripping hand, he wouldn't have had access to the family money, and I suspect that most of the money he had most of his life basically came from an unlimited credit card linked to the North Hollow money. I don't think that he, personally, would have had enough money to hire two hits.

If he was condemned, he wouldn't worry about saving anything, paying debts or running them up. He'd turn every penny he could lay his hands on, beg, borrow or steal, and call in every favor he could make any kind of claim on. He would probably consider it a bonus if he could cause financial difficulties for Stefan by running up debts Stefan would be responsible for.

He'd be very short of time and unlikely to get lots of cooperation, but he'd make the attempt, even if he had to resort to street-trash hoodlums like the attempt at the restaurant.

Yeah and every call he made and meeting he had would be monitored, probably with whatever personal accounts he had frozen or at least inaccessible to him, and any money he had on him seized while he was in prison awaiting review. He wouldn't exactly be able to go to the local loan office while imprisoned awaiting appeal and execution, and no loan office in their right mind would give him a loan under those circumstances.

roseandheather wrote:

cthia wrote:I find it very interesting everyone's take on this. It goes to show that one simply cannot second guess human nature. My thoughts, even though conviction of all charges carried the death penalty, and even though Georgia Sakristos probably would have been unwilling at that point to carry out Young's plans, still would have left a very angry, frightened man with immense wealth. Wealth that wasn't going to do him any good dead, that he could have used to smite his enemy even under the jaws of death. IMO. But alas, I could be wrong, because everyone's alalysis seems as likely 'spot on' as any.

Again, second guessing human nature and feelings is a copper-plated Cordelia Ransom.

Which brings me to Honor Harrington. Much of Honor's problems can be attributed to her failure to report Young's initial attack when it first happened, when Commander Hartley tried to drag it out of her. Why wouldn't Honor just say something? But real life supports Honor's feelings. You can never know how people will ultimately assimilate facts.

DING DING DING.

Also, "copper-plated Cordelia Ransom" is my new favorite swear word and I am going to use it at every given opportunity.

Oh, my sweet summer child. We're even!

*************

Trust funds just don't work in the manner that some seem to think they do. If one has a fortune that one plans to hand down to beneficiaries, one tend to want to insure that said beneficiaries have first hand experience with handling large amounts of money. You don't learn that living off of an allowance. And you certainly don't wish your child to come to you for every major expense. They will never learn the value of money that way, because they're spending your money instead of their own. You want them to have their own account so that they will come to know what they are spending, and to learn to make their money work. Additionally, the pride and snobbishness of a clan that uses phrases such as base-born Cordelia Ransom has a certain image to live up to. North Hollow would NOT stand for his kids living in any way less than the people they walk on. You can take that to the bank!

The political power of the North Hollow files caused this mess in the first place. The victims of those files had no way of knowing how Stefan would assume the role. I cannot believe that it can be thought that the same political power that would hang-tie an entire government wouldn't have had the political clout to buy Pavel time to get his affairs in order. After all, just getting full convictions would have been such a consolation, that little matters as 'exact' day of execution could have been extended. It wouldn't have surprised me if Young would have ridden death row for six months or more.

When my brother was murdered, word got to me that an inmate who was on death row was willing to kill him pro bono. He felt he owed a favor to my father in law for choosing to not pull the trigger when he had him in the sights of a Thompson submachine gun. It would have been quite spectacular because he had a few dozen sticks of dynamite strapped to his chest. I declined the offer but arranged for him to get 25 to life with three square meals a day and got him classified as a sex offender so he would get more sex than he could possibly want. He was fupinally released almost two years ago.

The lesson is that almost anything can be arranged from a prison cell.

Roguevictory wrote:
You (and others) give the impression that Pavel would have had time to marshal resources and find an assassin. More that none of you seem to assert any sense of urgency or time pressure in laying out Pavel's choices.

crewdude48 wrote:On the other hand, with even 30 days, access to the family money, and some contacts, he could have put a hit out on Paul and Honor in a fit of spite.

I don't think Pavel would feel that desperate/spiteful as long as there was any hope of the verdict being overturned on review. He would certainly turn every resource to revenge on Honor once his fate was confirmed, but he wouldn't have the time or inclination to arrange Paul's murder, too, once his fate was confirmed.

crewdude48 wrote:On the gripping hand, he wouldn't have had access to the family money, and I suspect that most of the money he had most of his life basically came from an unlimited credit card linked to the North Hollow money. I don't think that he, personally, would have had enough money to hire two hits.

If he was condemned, he wouldn't worry about saving anything, paying debts or running them up. He'd turn every penny he could lay his hands on, beg, borrow or steal, and call in every favor he could make any kind of claim on. He would probably consider it a bonus if he could cause financial difficulties for Stefan by running up debts Stefan would be responsible for.

He'd be very short of time and unlikely to get lots of cooperation, but he'd make the attempt, even if he had to resort to street-trash hoodlums like the attempt at the restaurant.

Yeah and every call he made and meeting he had would be monitored, probably with whatever personal accounts he had frozen or at least inaccessible to him, and any money he had on him seized while he was in prison awaiting review. He wouldn't exactly be able to go to the local loan office while imprisoned awaiting appeal and execution, and no loan office in their right mind would give him a loan under those circumstances.[/quote]

roseandheather wrote:

cthia wrote:I find it very interesting everyone's take on this. It goes to show that one simply cannot second guess human nature. My thoughts, even though conviction of all charges carried the death penalty, and even though Georgia Sakristos probably would have been unwilling at that point to carry out Young's plans, still would have left a very angry, frightened man with immense wealth. Wealth that wasn't going to do him any good dead, that he could have used to smite his enemy even under the jaws of death. IMO. But alas, I could be wrong, because everyone's alalysis seems as likely 'spot on' as any.

Again, second guessing human nature and feelings is a copper-plated Cordelia Ransom.

Which brings me to Honor Harrington. Much of Honor's problems can be attributed to her failure to report Young's initial attack when it first happened, when Commander Hartley tried to drag it out of her. Why wouldn't Honor just say something? But real life supports Honor's feelings. You can never know how people will ultimately assimilate facts.

DING DING DING.

Also, "copper-plated Cordelia Ransom" is my new favorite swear word and I am going to use it at every given opportunity.

Since "copper-plated" is originally a reference to sailing warships, and copper-plating made them less vulnerable to toredo worms, and therefore better sailers (and hence, tighter, more livable, and more dangerous), I must beg you to NOT use this phrase.

It would be an insult to ages of fine, well-found warships and their straight-forward integrity.

dreamrider

cthia wrote:I find it very interesting everyone's take on this. It goes to show that one simply cannot second guess human nature. My thoughts, even though conviction of all charges carried the death penalty, and even though Georgia Sakristos probably would have been unwilling at that point to carry out Young's plans, still would have left a very angry, frightened man with immense wealth. Wealth that wasn't going to do him any good dead, that he could have used to smite his enemy even under the jaws of death. IMO. But alas, I could be wrong, because everyone's alalysis seems as likely 'spot on' as any.

Again, second guessing human nature and feelings is a copper-plated Cordelia Ransom.

Which brings me to Honor Harrington. Much of Honor's problems can be attributed to her failure to report Young's initial attack when it first happened, when Commander Hartley tried to drag it out of her. Why wouldn't Honor just say something? But real life supports Honor's feelings. You can never know how people will ultimately assimilate facts.

roseandheather wrote:DING DING DING.

Also, "copper-plated Cordelia Ransom" is my new favorite swear word and I am going to use it at every given opportunity.

dreamrider wrote:Since "copper-plated" is originally a reference to sailing warships, and copper-plating made them less vulnerable to toredo worms, and therefore better sailers (and hence, tighter, more livable, and more dangerous), I must beg you to NOT use this phrase.

It would be an insult to ages of fine, well-found warships and their straight-forward integrity.

dreamrider

Something plated Cordelia Ransom... Wether it was copper, tungsten, titanium, ceramic alloys, she most definitely plated

Rusted Tin-plated?

' plum forgot about her input in the Young court martial. I must reread that. Does anyone readily recall the book that was in?'

The Pavel Young debacle was chronicled in "Field of Dishonor"

Can’t say that I’m great fan of Hemphill.
Am presently re-reading the series, and have reached Field of Dishonor, and the Young court martial deliberation.
“…I will not vote to convict Lord Young of the capital charges against him, Sir…Whether he was legally within his rights to refuse Lady Harrington’s orders, or whether he was bound by his understanding of the situation to accept them is immaterial to that decision.
At the same time, I will not allow a man like Lord Young to escape punishment…Whether the legal right or wrong of his actions, they were inexcusable….”
In that one brief statement she’s shown herself not only to be totally untrustworthy; in that she’s broken her oath to be impartial and apolitical, but also a bad officer, in that she showed no consideration at all of the servicemen killed when Young turned tail.
I recall from my first read that DW rehabilitates her, in a later conversation with Honor, also with her innovative skill.