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Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees

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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:50 am

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Something mentioned by one of the MMM captains at the start of Lacoon I, she had paments due on her ship financing and needed to make (at least) the one delivery to get through that payment.
Since this was a Government action to pull the private commercial shipping out of the SL, what relief or assistance might Manticore provide rather than having a lot of very useful and expensive shipping repossessed by lenders? Of course, if the financing is from SL sources (even if they have offices on Manticore) one responce might be to tell the SL based lenders to go see the Mandarins for thier money. It still isn't going to work out well and the problems for the ship owners (and investors) are going to be around for years.
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Browne   » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:46 pm

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Hutch wrote:
I must respectfully disagree, friend kzt. While all the Core and most if not all of the Shell planets (which would give you the 1,000 planets you need for your numbers) have the capability, I doubt many of them have the infrastructure in place to build 4-8MT Freighters. After all, 50% of ships built on Earth today come from three countries. And while they have the technology to establish the '100 freighters per month' capability, it is going to cost a good chunk of money and manpower, just as the trade and financial crisis casued by Lacoon I and II is ramping up.

And would you want to build a shipyard, knowing the Manties (or someone else in these turbulent times) could come by one day and return it to its component atoms? Not good business.

As for the SL not using Manty transport, I couldn't agree more--but the SL is not long for this time-space. If you mean that the one-time SL members are unlikely to trust the MMM in the near future, that is possible, but it is also something the Manties are aware of and will 'spin' to their advantage, IMHO.

Let's take for example a heavily agricultural planet (call it Nebraska). The Lacoon I and II actions have severly hurt it's economy and trade, both the export of food and the import of finished materials, and they are not in a good mood. Then a Manty CL squadron hypers in with six frieghters, three loaded with trade goods and three configured to carry grain and other products, along with contracts with several worlds out in the Haven Sector.

And the Manties say, in effect: "We were never really mad at you (It was the Mandarins and the idiots in the ISLN who forced us to such extermities). We'd like to re-establish trade and other friendly relations, especially since the SL seems to be breaking apart and can no longer protect you, and that Verge dictator 60 LY over thataway with the SDF with a BC division has been making noises in your direction--in fact, there are 7-8 other worlds nearby who we've started trading with again and I think they'd be interested in joining some 'Common Market and Defense Alliance" with you--and one of them has some SD's...."

It will have to be handled very well, and there will be some slipups, but I think that is what "Honor's plan" is striving for.

We shall see--eventually.

IMHO as always...YMMV.

I wonder if the systems of the Renaissance Factor have been building freighters or had a larger then normal for the SL merchant fleet so they could do the same.
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:52 pm

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Hutch wrote:Let's take for example a heavily agricultural planet (call it Nebraska). The Lacoon I and II actions have severly hurt it's economy and trade, both the export of food and the import of finished materials, and they are not in a good mood. Then a Manty CL squadron hypers in with six frieghters, three loaded with trade goods and three configured to carry grain and other products, along with contracts with several worlds out in the Haven Sector.

Where exactly did they get those trade goods? I seem to remember reading that all their factories blowed up real good. And last I heard they seemed to have some sort of crazy plan to build military systems first before everything else, so I think it might be a while before they have anything to trade. They also don't seem to have any use for 72 million cubic meters of grain (2.04 billion bushels - roughly the entire annual US wheat crop), unless you know of some planet in the SEM that is having a huge famine.
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Hutch   » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:23 am

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kzt wrote:
Hutch wrote:Let's take for example a heavily agricultural planet (call it Nebraska). The Lacoon I and II actions have severly hurt it's economy and trade, both the export of food and the import of finished materials, and they are not in a good mood. Then a Manty CL squadron hypers in with six frieghters, three loaded with trade goods and three configured to carry grain and other products, along with contracts with several worlds out in the Haven Sector.

Where exactly did they get those trade goods? I seem to remember reading that all their factories blowed up real good. And last I heard they seemed to have some sort of crazy plan to build military systems first before everything else, so I think it might be a while before they have anything to trade. They also don't seem to have any use for 72 million cubic meters of grain (2.04 billion bushels - roughly the entire annual US wheat crop), unless you know of some planet in the SEM that is having a huge famine.


Fair point, and I deal with it to some extent in the thread on the economic changes in store for Human-space.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5503

But regarding your points above:

While Manticore may not have products, other planets allied with them have not had their industrial areas destroyed and can produce things that the GA knows (due to the MMM having carried products for decades to and from Nebraska) are necessary. So it is a matter of fostering trade between various members of the GA (and associated Verge and perhaps Shell/Core systems) with Manticore in the role of transporter and 'honest broker'.

And while Manticore may not need multi-million ton shipments of wheat, there are probably worlds where growing food is hard and buying it relatively cheaply is a viable option--and the MMM is most likely to know which worlds these are, from their long experience.

As I said in the other thread, I presume/hope that there is a center (funded either/or by the Government or the MMM/Cartels) that is compiling all the information on trade with all the human-space words to establish new trading patterns and markets for those allied to Manticore and the GA.

At least, that's my thought--what few I generate these days...

IMHO as always. YMMV.
Last edited by Hutch on Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:45 am

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It is possible but unlikely that either the Manticor government or a private group has done an analysis of "Nebraskas" current needs and put together a package that collects the things they need and found customers for the wheat (and other ag products). However, someone is going to have to front both the money to purchase said "things" and have worked out a price to be paid (and agreement to buy same) for the ag products at the customer systems.
You are talking about a multi-stage multi-system trade deal for millions of tons of cargo flowing both ways. This is probably best done by a number of the shipping and trading companies that own part of or are customers of the MMM fleets. They would be investing in the cargos as commodities since they don't have ordres in-hand for purchase or sale at this point. What are you going to ship to Nebraska? If Manticore (using ground based manufacture) makes M brand trucks and K brand countergrav light/medium/heavy trucks but Nebraska has really only been buying NewPanAsian licesened(and built in a variety of places) ground and countergrav equipment, they are faced with a problem. Compatable eqipment is just the beginning. There is the whole spare parts question plus maintenance. If Nebraska has a pressing need for the transport equipment, it probably will find markets there but what will they be willing to pay?
Someone is going to have to do the actual work to determine what potential markets there are on Nebraska and what markets there are for it's products.
I suspect that grain and similar products will have a better chance of profit (and make all of this worth while) being sold as a bulk commodity based on the nutrition value.
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Hutch   » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:17 am

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Brigade XO wrote:It is possible but unlikely that either the Manticor government or a private group has done an analysis of "Nebraskas" current needs and put together a package that collects the things they need and found customers for the wheat (and other ag products). However, someone is going to have to front both the money to purchase said "things" and have worked out a price to be paid (and agreement to buy same) for the ag products at the customer systems.
You are talking about a multi-stage multi-system trade deal for millions of tons of cargo flowing both ways. This is probably best done by a number of the shipping and trading companies that own part of or are customers of the MMM fleets. They would be investing in the cargos as commodities since they don't have ordres in-hand for purchase or sale at this point. What are you going to ship to Nebraska? If Manticore (using ground based manufacture) makes M brand trucks and K brand countergrav light/medium/heavy trucks but Nebraska has really only been buying NewPanAsian licesened(and built in a variety of places) ground and countergrav equipment, they are faced with a problem. Compatable eqipment is just the beginning. There is the whole spare parts question plus maintenance. If Nebraska has a pressing need for the transport equipment, it probably will find markets there but what will they be willing to pay?
Someone is going to have to do the actual work to determine what potential markets there are on Nebraska and what markets there are for it's products.
I suspect that grain and similar products will have a better chance of profit (and make all of this worth while) being sold as a bulk commodity based on the nutrition value.



I believe, to use an old phrase, that we are 'violenty in agreement', XO.

The only purpose of Government is to create an imparital center for the MMM/other merchants to place/trade information--since I therorize that cartels and owner-operators in the Honorverse don't normally share business information with their competitors anymore than business does today.

Your point on commonality of equipment is well-taken and could be a sticking point--and might help determine which planets the GA tries to pry from the SL embrace. I concur with posts on another thread that the GA does not want to conquer the SL; it wants to rip the fragile fabric holding it together to ribbons--and re-starting trade and commerce is one of there best shredding tools, IMHO.

It's going to be tricky, and it will give economists throughout the galaxy the opportunity to write learned papersfor centuries thereafter.

I guess we will have to see how it plays out.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Manticore Merchant Marine plus Junction Fees
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:11 pm

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I can see Manticore organizing trade missions to a number of systems that are either now under their influence or have been helped. I suspect that Manticore might want to at least offer opportunities in those to Grasyon since Grayson is in at least as deep a hole as Manticore as far as generating export credits to help with the rebuild.
Depending on where the systems are, Manticore MIGHT want to include Haven in a trade mission but that is probably going too far.

A trade mission lets you do a lot of things and should provide the basis of starting commerce between at least Manticore (or a number of it's companies) and the subject of the mission. Manticore (or someone) is going to have some information on the system and planet(s) in question. I would suppose that an initial conversation with the commander of whatever RMN ship was recently there might inquire as to things the System currently needs or usually exports. That would be, at least, good material of ONI and would be a basis for further discussion in trade areas.
You send a merchant ship (with suitable escort) to carry the trade delegation. At the very least that is going to have people who cover a wide range of manufacturing, brokers, shipping interests (including the company supplying the ship) trading companies and the like. They represent both themselves and a number of other companies who would be looking to buy products from the System and sell Manticorian products and those of other systems. To the System’s population. Other than from SL sources, trading houses and smaller independent companies look to make a profit. Ultimately it doesn’t truly matter if they sell Manticore (kind of limited at the moment) products or those produced elsewhere. Unless they go with something like a small (not DB sized or Honor’s civilian ship) they probably are going to take along things for sale in sizes well beyond “sample” size. They are also going to include people in the banking and finance industry. Why? Because they would have an interest in both financing purchases/sales and to establish local branches and relationships with the banking houses within that system.
This is NOT the tactic of OFS and the various TransStellars which look to create corporate monopolies wherever they go. Manticore wants TRADE. Of course the government (and Manticore based manufacturing) would love to see only Manticore produced goods and services sold but ultimately if company X makes money (particularly shipping on MMM bottoms) selling stuff to System B that was made in Matapan or the IAN or Manticorian Silesia or some independent South Terra Haute, Manticore is going to benefit from taxes on profits, fees for the wormholes and increased business volume in related services.

This is not something that is being forced down the System B’s throat. They don’t have to buy from anyone on the trade mission nor sell to them either. However, doing business with the representatives (and getting access to all sorts of information, service providers (goods brokers, financing, shippers etc) can bring in other potential buyers and sellers. It is quite likely that even the initial range of agreements and purchases/sales are going to be at better prices for the people in System B than what they were getting doing business with the TransStellars and "friends" of OFS. Manticore is NOT going to dictate trade terms.
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