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Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:05 pm

Bruno Behrends
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Location: Berlin

I am feeling bad about whats happening. Still it is not true that you are totally on your own. Although I imagine its hard not to feel that way.

The situation is complicated but not totally without hope:

Military support of Ukraine is out of the question for obvious reasons. Valid reasons, I am afraid.

That leaves political and economical support. And that's happening actually even if one could always wish for more.

Europe stands united against this invasion and makes that clear politically. Its easy to dismiss that as pure blabla - but it really is more than that.

Economically the sanctions may be more symbolic than real - yet.

I think and hope it is European pressure and threat of further sanctions that may (hopefully) deter Putin from grabbing any more of Ukraine. Or the whole country.
There is no guarantee for that unfortunately but but I am pretty sure Putin knows very well that any further aggression against Ukraine would run the risk of European economic sanctions that have some real bite.
Yes, Europe - Germany especially - buys a lot of Russian gas.
But that coin has a flip side: Without those gas sales the Russian economy would fall on pretty hard times. I think Putin knows that if he pisses us off too much he may get in economic trouble.

That doesn't mean its impossible that he'll risk a war - or more of it rather - anyway. But he will think long and hard first and may yet come to his senses.

Also I understand the EU has agreed on like 13 billion dollars of economic aid to Ukraine.

Last but not least I hope some sanity breaks out in the Kreml. Much as Russia seems to cherish this Crimean 'success' I think Putin really has done his country a disservice in the long run. He could have used Ukraine to form a bridge between east and west. Instead he has put Russia into offside politically - and very likely economically also. A short-sighted policy.

Taras_Potatos wrote:As i was saing i am from Ukraine and i think you should know this.

UKRAINE , given that the guarantor of its security , according to the Budapest Memorandum , abandoned his duties , declares its withdrawal from the MOU, and begin restoring its nuclear capability, which it voluntarily, under the guarantee of States Parties of the Memorandum, got rid of .

Please bring this declaration to the whole international community .
via Google translate.

Everybody are talking about deep concern, and continuing doing bussiness whith RuSSia as usual.

We, as always in modern history, are on our own.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:24 pm

Tenshinai
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Location: Sweden

biochem wrote:
And I'm sure you'd just love it if someone did something like this to YOUR country.


No, why would i? Didn´t say anything about liking it.

AND, if you actually knew your history, you would know this HAS already happened multiple times for MY country.

Finland, Norway and Åland in particular stand out. With Åland being a rather strange event as the people there specifically and outspokenly wanted to again be part of Sweden, or at least get independence.

Finland was lost in war with Russia couple of centuries ago, Norway demanded independence a bit over a century ago, and Åland was dealt with on an international basis 1921 after it was lost with Finland in 1809.

If you go further back, there´s parts of the Baltic states, Poland and Germany that were also Swedish once.

Shit happens, deal with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Swedish_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... ing_Sweden
Those are not short lists, try looking and see if you can figure out how often Sweden was weaker in economy and forces, and how often a war entailed several enemy nations.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:44 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:Last but not least I hope some sanity breaks out in the Kreml. Much as Russia seems to cherish this Crimean 'success' I think Putin really has done his country a disservice in the long run. He could have used Ukraine to form a bridge between east and west. Instead he has put Russia into offside politically - and very likely economically also. A short-sighted policy.


You delude yourself if you think that this was a chosen path by Putin or Russia.

Yanukovych is probably the single person to blame the most for this mess, as he tried to play both sides against each other while profiting from it personally more than nationally.

Bruno Behrends wrote:That doesn't mean its impossible that he'll risk a war - or more of it rather - anyway. But he will think long and hard first and may yet come to his senses.


I´m afraid Putin never took leave of his senses. Certain other politicians though...

And i say that well aware that it´s MY own damn foreign minister that is one of the idiots exploiting EU as his own little playtoy to use in his rabid crusade against Russia. Among others, but he´s certainly one of those trying to force the matter.

Russia was seeing a repeat of Georgia, there was simply no option not to act.
HOW Russia acted, bad, but it could have been much worse.
If USA and EU had not forced the issue in Kiev, matters would very likely have gone much calmer.

Bruno Behrends wrote:Also I understand the EU has agreed on like 13 billion dollars of economic aid to Ukraine.


If i was Ukrainian i would be VERY suspicious about that money. And utterly refuse to have anything to do with IMF unless they gave any loans or aid totally without strings attached.

Odds are depressingly high that the people of Ukraine are the ones who will be shafted again, and that´s without things going even worse.

Bruno Behrends wrote:Yes, Europe - Germany especially - buys a lot of Russian gas.
But that coin has a flip side: Without those gas sales the Russian economy would fall on pretty hard times. I think Putin knows that if he pisses us off too much he may get in economic trouble.


Russia´s economy may not exactly be "solid", but it can handle not selling gas to the EU far better than the EU can handle not buying that gas.

Unless of course you want Germany to restart it´s nuclear power plants completely?
And run them at about 20% above nominal to compensate up to a minimum level of power needed for the country to run, when you remove the imported gas.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by Taras_Potatos   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:31 pm

Taras_Potatos
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:04 pm
Location: Ukraine

Tenshinai wrote:You should probably recall that one of the reasons Russia have issues with Ukraine now, is that the coup placed neonazis in government, and in charge of the army.

Personally i´m totally embarassed that my foreign minister is running around cuddling up with the likes of Svoboda.

Fond of ruSSian propaganda?
http://cursorinfo.co.il/upload-files/ec ... 72c2c8.jpg
This is Chief Rabbi of Ukraine and Kyiv at Maidan.
And in central synagogue prayer for well- being of Ukraine and to prevent war with Russia was read.
It was idea of Nathan Khazin(don’t know how to spell it correctly), the leader of battle self-defense troop of Maidan. http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/gloryah/post316467771
First victims killed by special forces “Berkut” was belorussian, armenian (born in cenral Ukraine) and native ukranian .
http://kor.ill.in.ua/m/610x0/1345915.jp ... 7610026671
Are you still sayng something ‘bout nazi?
And to see the difference
http://s.citysites.ua/section/newsIcon/ ... 544774.jpg
28 of February. “Liberated” Crimea. Sevastopol synagogue. Death to jews.
http://www.i-r-p.ru/page/stream-event/index-19440.html
14 of March, “Liberated” Crimea, dozens of graves damaged or destroyed in the Muslim cemetery. Tatars out of the Crimea
Misinformation, my apologies. 14 of Apriel 2008.
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/atta ... enduma.jpg
First day after referendum
The songs about horrible Svoboba (they are nationalist party, not nazi ) came from the same source.
You may wish to read this.
“Long live Jews!,” “Long live Israel” heard at the 200-year Memorial of Taras Shevchenko in Kiev
http://ajewishisrael.com/long-live-jews ... enko-kiev/


Tenshinai wrote:To be blatant about it, Ukraine hasn´t exactly existed all that much as an independent state in modern history.

1920-ties Ukraine was fighting a battle for independence on two fronts simultaneously. With red RuSSia and reinforced by Entente Poland. You know the outcome.

Tenshinai wrote:ANOTHER issue is that Ukraine has "cried wolf" several times already, and in those cases it was their own doing (or probably more correctly, the corrupt politicians of Ukraine´s doing). I´m referring to the "gas war", in which Ukraine didn´t want to pay the same price as Russian customers, while stealing a shitload of gas, denying it while there was arguing happening, and then in the end one of your government ministers says that sure we took the gas, as if there was some sort of entitlement.

Ukraine ratified the Energy Charter and RuSSia does not. And all the time we transported all gas dedicated for EU, sometimes from our own storages. The episode that you describes was a masterful trap set by Gasprom and oligarch Dmytro Firtash(The owner of the gas) and performed by Yulia Tymoshenko.
Last edited by Taras_Potatos on Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by Taras_Potatos   » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Taras_Potatos
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:04 pm
Location: Ukraine

Tenshinai wrote:You delude yourself if you think that this was a chosen path by Putin or Russia.

Yanukovych is probably the single person to blame the most for this mess, as he tried to play both sides against each other while profiting from it personally more than nationally.


Now I get it. You are reading the picture entirely wrong. Yanukovych IS Putins puppet. You know? Back in 2004 he greeted Yanek several times before inauguration.
Our army was systematically corrupted. One fact. L’viv was military center of this region for last 400 years, by all regimes and 2013 this bastard decided to move Western Operational Command to Rivne under the guise of reform! Our national security agency is totally corrupted and invaded with FSB agent.

And don’t say a single word about election in 2015! Look at this! One of Yaneks residence. http://open-ua.com/kiev_region/mezhigorie/en/ And his cronies are cut from the same piece of cloth. You really think that this man would allow any free election?
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:54 am

namelessfly

http://theconservativetreehouse.files.w ... -obama.jpg
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:57 am

namelessfly

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... l-gelding/
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Re: Ukraine
Post by pokermind   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:50 am

pokermind
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4002
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:58 am
Location: Jerome, Idaho, USA

Image

namelessfly wrote:http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/03/04/giddyap-ol-gelding/
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by pokermind   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:01 am

pokermind
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4002
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:58 am
Location: Jerome, Idaho, USA

Image

Crimea River :lol:

namelessfly wrote:http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/crimea-river-obama.jpg
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:28 pm

namelessfly

http://conservatives4palin.com/2014/03/ ... acket.html

And another priceless political cartoon.
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