HFQ Official Snippet #8

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Randomiser,

The EoC does have smokeless powder as of LaMA. They are in process of developing true high explosives in usable quantities. AAMOF, the M96s are scheduled to use smokeless powder by summer 897. The Mahndrayn converts can't use smokeless rounds due to the increased pressures. I suspect by the time the KHVIIs commission, they will use smokeless powder to some degree.

They have the idea of smokeless powder as of LAMA,“They seem to have a pretty good handle on what they need to do; the problem is figuring out how to do it, especially in quantity",(p217). They are not actually going to have the rounds for the M96 until 'late next spring or even early summer' , as you say, i.e. they don't have them just at the moment and I can't even find a discussion of when they might have smokeless powder and HE in artillery rounds, which is what we were talking about.

The can use smokeless powder in the conversions; they just can't load them to equally high chamber pressures. They can improve the original Mahndrayn's ballistics slightly with the new powders but, more importantly, they can tremendously decrease the powder smoke which both reveals a shooter's position and clogs battlefield visibility,.

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and pyric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately foreseen.

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Randomiser,

The EoC does have smokeless powder as of LaMA. They are in process of developing true high explosives in usable quantities. AAMOF, the M96s are scheduled to use smokeless powder by summer 897. The Mahndrayn converts can't use smokeless rounds due to the increased pressures. I suspect by the time the KHVIIs commission, they will use smokeless powder to some degree.

They have the idea of smokeless powder as of LAMA, “They seem to have a pretty good handle on what they need to do; the problem is figuring out how to do it, especially in quantity", (p217). They are not actually going to have the rounds for the M96 until 'late next spring or even early summer' , as you say, i.e. they don't have them just at the moment and I can't even find a discussion of when they might have smokeless powder and HE in artillery rounds, which is what we were talking about.

BTW the trapdoor Mandrayn's are probably going to get a smokeless powder cartridge but it will have to be a different version from the M96's with less propellent due to safety considerations.

n7axw wrote:Hi RFC and Dilandu,
As I understand privateers

Don

Charis was using privateers backed by the ICN to enforce a sea control strategy. I don't know whether the Desnairian sea denial strategy (a very different set of objectives, based on asymmetric warfare) really are privateers or not. Sea denial strategies can be pursued successfully by a (usually much weaker) state, without private sector involvement. China's PLAN and Coast Guard strategy for littoral access denial from China's coastal waters are a case in point in today's real life world.

China has a new, plentiful andprobably effective littoral combat fleet of small, fast and stealthy warships designed essentially to deny access by US carrier groups to their coastal waters, when used in conjunction with their stealthy low-tech diesel attack sub fleet. Pound for pound, our larger and more expensive boats outgun their's, but they have more of them than we can reasonably hope to sink. These stealthy surface ships - ranging from PT-sized trimaran missile boats (like their type 022s) to DDGs (like their new type 052s and 054s) - are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships. Our own littoral program is reactive and largely ineffective. We've been able to deploy two Independence class LCSs compared with 90 022s, and, for the price of one ($700 million dollars... $500 million overbudget), China can reportedly build 12 022s and some strategists reportedly aren't even sure the Independence can safely outshoot even one).

This is about asymmetric warfare to chase LCN ships from the Desnairian and Siddarmarkian coasts. If Charis attempts to respond by building more expensive ships to fight off their swarms, they'd be making exactly the same mistake the US is with the Independence LCS program. The better bet would be to empower Tarotians or Siddarmarkians with similarly low tech solutions and fight fire with fire. Either that, or occupy Desnair.

PeterZ wrote:

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and picric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately

I do seem to recall a mention of dynamite at some point, as well as nitroglycerin production. I suspect that will arrive sooner than picric acid or large quantities of smokeless powder. OTOH, a smaller production of smokeless powder would still be enough to supply the Scout Snipers.

Or maybe smokeless revolvers with a sound suppressor for Nynian's people :^)

-- Bob G

Ah! We have it. September 896 II Telesberg.

Dr. Lywys estimates that they won't be able to produce gun cotton filled cartridges for the m96 until late spring early summer 897. Producing gun cotton for infantry round propellent or repackaging it for naval rifles won't be difficult.

The HE is still uncertain. Although, producing enough HE for some 10" shells to fire out of the KHVII and her sisters might be in the cards.

BobG wrote:PeterZ wrote:

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and picric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately

I do seem to recall a mention of dynamite at some point, as well as nitroglycerin production. I suspect that will arrive sooner than picric acid or large quantities of smokeless powder. OTOH, a smaller production of smokeless powder would still be enough to supply the Scout Snipers.

Or maybe smokeless revolvers with a sound suppressor for Nynian's people :^)

-- Bob G

gbabafan wrote:China has a new, plentiful andprobably effective littoral combat fleet of small, fast and stealthy warships designed essentially to deny access by US carrier groups to their coastal waters,

Er... For what reason the US carriers should go to the Chinese coastal waters?

As i recall, the combat range of F/A-18 is about 770 km, and it could be increased significantly with air refueling from the fellow F/A-18. And it isn't coastal waters at all.

These stealthy surface ships - ranging from PT-sized trimaran missile boats (like their type 022s) to DDGs (like their new type 052s and 054s) - are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

Er... China's Type 052D is almost as big as the USN "Arleigh Burke". They definitely aren't cheaper.

Pound for pound, our larger and more expensive boats outgun their's, but they have more of them than we can reasonably hope to sink.

And so? The US naval aviation is perfectly able to sunk ANY number of small warships, as soon as they went outside the range of effective chinese aviation cover. Let's not forget, how effective is aviation against small boats with rudimentary air defense... As i recall, during the "Morvaird" operation, the pair of iranian F-4 took no more than 5 minutes to sunk 80% of Iraq navy (about ten missile and torpedo boats).

are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

And the US have more than enough of even cheaper, smaller and effective anti-ship missiles to devastate the chinese navy. The problem is, that the small warships is extremely vunerable to air and missile attacks, because they haven't any effective air defense.

This is about asymmetric warfare to chase LCN ships from the Desnairian and Siddarmarkian coasts. If Charis attempts to respond by building more expensive ships to fight off their swarms, they'd be making exactly the same mistake the US is with the Independence LCS program. The better bet would be to empower Tarotians or Siddarmarkians with similarly low tech solutions and fight fire with fire. Either that, or occupy Desnair.

And let me make some things straight. What are you proposed is nothin more than the old "Jeune Ecole": the conception of replacing the big, costly warships with small, fast boats, and to replace the big naval battle with "continious attacks".

The problem is, that it wouldn't work. The small, fast "swarming" boats are too vunerable to weather and sea conditions, they have a mobility and range problems. And it's VERY hard to operate the large fleet of small units. Usually, the enemy ocean-going ships would just destroy the swarming fleet part by part, by concentrating the superior firepower on the few in any time.

Dilandu wrote:

gbabafan wrote:China has a new, plentiful andprobably effective littoral combat fleet of small, fast and stealthy warships designed essentially to deny access by US carrier groups to their coastal waters,

Er... For what reason the US carriers should go to the Chinese coastal waters?

As i recall, the combat range of F/A-18 is about 770 km, and it could be increased significantly with air refueling from the fellow F/A-18. And it isn't coastal waters at all.

These stealthy surface ships - ranging from PT-sized trimaran missile boats (like their type 022s) to DDGs (like their new type 052s and 054s) - are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

Er... China's Type 052D is almost as big as the USN "Arleigh Burke". They definitely aren't cheaper.

Pound for pound, our larger and more expensive boats outgun their's, but they have more of them than we can reasonably hope to sink.

And so? The US naval aviation is perfectly able to sunk ANY number of small warships, as soon as they went outside the range of effective chinese aviation cover. Let's not forget, how effective is aviation against small boats with rudimentary air defense... As i recall, during the "Morvaird" operation, the pair of iranian F-4 took no more than 5 minutes to sunk 80% of Iraq navy (about ten missile and torpedo boats).

are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

And the US have more than enough of even cheaper, smaller and effective anti-ship missiles to devastate the chinese navy. The problem is, that the small warships is extremely vunerable to air and missile attacks, because they haven't any effective air defense.

This is about asymmetric warfare to chase LCN ships from the Desnairian and Siddarmarkian coasts. If Charis attempts to respond by building more expensive ships to fight off their swarms, they'd be making exactly the same mistake the US is with the Independence LCS program. The better bet would be to empower Tarotians or Siddarmarkians with similarly low tech solutions and fight fire with fire. Either that, or occupy Desnair.

And let me make some things straight. What are you proposed is nothin more than the old "Jeune Ecole": the conception of replacing the big, costly warships with small, fast boats, and to replace the big naval battle with "continious attacks".

The problem is, that it wouldn't work. The small, fast "swarming" boats are too vunerable to weather and sea conditions, they have a mobility and range problems. And it's VERY hard to operate the large fleet of small units. Usually, the enemy ocean-going ships would just destroy the swarming fleet part by part, by concentrating the superior firepower on the few in any time.

Nice post, Dilandu...


What's different though is Safehold doesn't have air. The problem that the ICN faces is the need to be many places at once. It seems to me that against an opponent of limited capabilities, large numbers of inexpensively built craft does make more sense than more expensive ships that can only be built in limited numbers as long as capability of what you are building matches or exceeds the opposition.

Don

In SAFEHOLD situation i perfectly agree, that a large fleet of wooden screw gunboat/small corwettes would be enormously more effective than KH, or future specialized cruisers.

There is a reason it is called asymmetric warfare.
The asymmetry is not only in power, but also in costs.

Imagine Desnair having one squadron of 20 schooners. The ICN can’t hunt them down with their galleons because schooners can sail closer to the wind than galleons. If Charis has five convoys en route between Charis and Siddarmark v.v., how many escorts do they need?

My guess is 24 schooners or 12 schooners and 8 galleons per convoy. If there are also convoys between Chisholm and Siddarmark v.v. and between Corrisande and Siddarmark v.v. you have to commit an awful lot of escort ships to protect against only 20 raiders.

That is the reason I think Charis needs an escort vessel that is (a lot) faster than a schooner, is invulnerable to the schooners cannons and can sink one easily. It should be the cheapest ship they can build within these specifications.

Assign two per convoy and the problem of the raider squadron is solved. If they are stupid enough to attack, they can defend together, and when the raiders try to flee, one can give chase while the other stays behind to protect the convoy.

This is cheaper and more effective than building hundreds of schooners.

Actually armaments might be the key, they are making 4"/45s for the King Harold VII these fast loading cartridge guns rifled with long ranges, and a single hit with those shells will make any privateer schooner or galleon say uncle A single gun on a merchant galleon should protect it from any privateer.

Poker

PS Arm patrol schooners with two 4"/45s and send them after the privateers.