HFQ Official Snippet #8

Randomiser wrote:Dilandu, how can even you say in one breath that the EoC is short of steam engines and in the next be saying they should be building hundreds of screw gunboats? There is something of a contradiction there, no? Also the textev is that the Desnairian privateers are in fact cutting cargo galleons out of convoys, not just sinking as many as they can.

The problem is, that the gunboat's engine are much simpler that for the ocean fast battleships.

The Engines are all simple double acting piston engines, the difference between them in size, and the number of expansions. The gunboats are double expansion, and the Battleships are triple expansion. To be self starting they must have two High pressure engines with cranks set at right angles, and are probably both four cylinder engines. Thus as for complexity they are the same, just different in size. If non self starting you can remove one cylinder for the triple expansion engine, and two cylinders from the double expansion engine, but must d jacking gear to move the engine off dead center

Poker

PS High speed battleships have turbines and reduction gear, currently Safehold is not using turbines that are much closer tolerance machining projects that than reciprocating steam engines. Turbines must be carefully balanced for high RPMs, and reduction gears are a non trivial machining project.

Dilandu wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Dilandu, how can even you say in one breath that the EoC is short of steam engines and in the next be saying they should be building hundreds of screw gunboats? There is something of a contradiction there, no? Also the textev is that the Desnairian privateers are in fact cutting cargo galleons out of convoys, not just sinking as many as they can.

The problem is, that the gunboat's engine are much simpler that for the ocean fast battleships.

Hi Don,

Quite right.

Textev for three books has told us that Howsmyn is building two other steel works as big as Delthak that were almost finished at Tellesberg and Maikelberg, which will alleviate most of the current steel production bottlenecks, though increasing demand will catch, match and surpass faster than they may expect.

Perhaps Tellesberg [actually Helen Island] will build Comet type light cruisers for convoy and anti-commerce raiding schooner hunting duties, while Maikelberg builds the Maikelberg class cruisers, for more flexible missions.

Messenger wyverns might be sent to Sekyr and Howard Islands to attempt some kind of intercept the captured cargo ships, with blowing the ships up via the SNARC's the last resort.

Arming the galleons with the 30 pounder shell firing carronades ought to increase the schooner losses as well.

We may know more by this weekend.

L


[quote="n7axw"][quote="Tanstaafl"]The building plans for the Charisian Navy are inspired by the strategic and tactical goals of the war.
The plans for the KH-VII battleships are from before the Sword of Schueler. They were intended to be the first steam powered, steel armored warships on Safehold. Initially envisioned as sail / steam ships, after the success of the ironclad riverboats redesigned without sails.

The development of the war in Siddarmark brought us the ironclad riverboats. Four improvised steam powered gunboats build to wreck the CoGA logistics. Their success led to the second generation of ironclad riverboats and the Eraystor coastal patrol ships.

This new thread imposed by the Desnairian schooners should lead to a new ship type added to the table of ICN steel ships. Corvettes designed for convoy escort duty.
See my previous post about such ships. [url]http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?p=163636#p163636[/url]

I realize that the first impulse is to build what can be the fastest deployed, but the ICN should not invest in wooden sailing ships anymore.
If Maikelberg is producing enough steel, that sounds as an excellent place to start building these ships.

edit typos[/quote]

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly.... provided the capacity is available. But in the meantime...tumtetumtum

Don[/quote]

PeterZ wrote:Randomiser,

The EoC does have smokeless powder as of LaMA. They are in process of developing true high explosives in usable quantities. AAMOF, the M96s are scheduled to use smokeless powder by summer 897. The Mahndrayn converts can't use smokeless rounds due to the increased pressures. I suspect by the time the KHVIIs commission, they will use smokeless powder to some degree.

They have the idea of smokeless powder as of LAMA, “They seem to have a pretty good handle on what they need to do; the problem is figuring out how to do it, especially in quantity", (p217). They are not actually going to have the rounds for the M96 until 'late next spring or even early summer' , as you say, i.e. they don't have them just at the moment and I can't even find a discussion of when they might have smokeless powder and HE in artillery rounds, which is what we were talking about.

BTW the trapdoor Mandrayn's are probably going to get a smokeless powder cartridge but it will have to be a different version from the M96's with less propellent due to safety considerations.

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Randomiser,

The EoC does have smokeless powder as of LaMA. They are in process of developing true high explosives in usable quantities. AAMOF, the M96s are scheduled to use smokeless powder by summer 897. The Mahndrayn converts can't use smokeless rounds due to the increased pressures. I suspect by the time the KHVIIs commission, they will use smokeless powder to some degree.

They have the idea of smokeless powder as of LAMA,“They seem to have a pretty good handle on what they need to do; the problem is figuring out how to do it, especially in quantity",(p217). They are not actually going to have the rounds for the M96 until 'late next spring or even early summer' , as you say, i.e. they don't have them just at the moment and I can't even find a discussion of when they might have smokeless powder and HE in artillery rounds, which is what we were talking about.

The can use smokeless powder in the conversions; they just can't load them to equally high chamber pressures. They can improve the original Mahndrayn's ballistics slightly with the new powders but, more importantly, they can tremendously decrease the powder smoke which both reveals a shooter's position and clogs battlefield visibility,.

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and pyric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately foreseen.

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Randomiser,

The EoC does have smokeless powder as of LaMA. They are in process of developing true high explosives in usable quantities. AAMOF, the M96s are scheduled to use smokeless powder by summer 897. The Mahndrayn converts can't use smokeless rounds due to the increased pressures. I suspect by the time the KHVIIs commission, they will use smokeless powder to some degree.

They have the idea of smokeless powder as of LAMA, “They seem to have a pretty good handle on what they need to do; the problem is figuring out how to do it, especially in quantity", (p217). They are not actually going to have the rounds for the M96 until 'late next spring or even early summer' , as you say, i.e. they don't have them just at the moment and I can't even find a discussion of when they might have smokeless powder and HE in artillery rounds, which is what we were talking about.

BTW the trapdoor Mandrayn's are probably going to get a smokeless powder cartridge but it will have to be a different version from the M96's with less propellent due to safety considerations.

n7axw wrote:Hi RFC and Dilandu,
As I understand privateers

Don

Charis was using privateers backed by the ICN to enforce a sea control strategy. I don't know whether the Desnairian sea denial strategy (a very different set of objectives, based on asymmetric warfare) really are privateers or not. Sea denial strategies can be pursued successfully by a (usually much weaker) state, without private sector involvement. China's PLAN and Coast Guard strategy for littoral access denial from China's coastal waters are a case in point in today's real life world.

China has a new, plentiful andprobably effective littoral combat fleet of small, fast and stealthy warships designed essentially to deny access by US carrier groups to their coastal waters, when used in conjunction with their stealthy low-tech diesel attack sub fleet. Pound for pound, our larger and more expensive boats outgun their's, but they have more of them than we can reasonably hope to sink. These stealthy surface ships - ranging from PT-sized trimaran missile boats (like their type 022s) to DDGs (like their new type 052s and 054s) - are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships. Our own littoral program is reactive and largely ineffective. We've been able to deploy two Independence class LCSs compared with 90 022s, and, for the price of one ($700 million dollars... $500 million overbudget), China can reportedly build 12 022s and some strategists reportedly aren't even sure the Independence can safely outshoot even one).

This is about asymmetric warfare to chase LCN ships from the Desnairian and Siddarmarkian coasts. If Charis attempts to respond by building more expensive ships to fight off their swarms, they'd be making exactly the same mistake the US is with the Independence LCS program. The better bet would be to empower Tarotians or Siddarmarkians with similarly low tech solutions and fight fire with fire. Either that, or occupy Desnair.

PeterZ wrote:

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and picric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately

I do seem to recall a mention of dynamite at some point, as well as nitroglycerin production. I suspect that will arrive sooner than picric acid or large quantities of smokeless powder. OTOH, a smaller production of smokeless powder would still be enough to supply the Scout Snipers.

Or maybe smokeless revolvers with a sound suppressor for Nynian's people :^)

-- Bob G

Ah! We have it. September 896 II Telesberg.

Dr. Lywys estimates that they won't be able to produce gun cotton filled cartridges for the m96 until late spring early summer 897. Producing gun cotton for infantry round propellent or repackaging it for naval rifles won't be difficult.

The HE is still uncertain. Although, producing enough HE for some 10" shells to fire out of the KHVII and her sisters might be in the cards.

BobG wrote:PeterZ wrote:

August 896 section V. Delthak Works.

The closest they come to giving a timetable is saying they can't produce Poudre B or cordite next Tuesday and picric acid next month. That they are stuck using Brown powder for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps interpreting that to mean next summer is overly optimistic. Then again the pace of advancement would suggest 6-9 months as a reasonable limit to what can be accurately

I do seem to recall a mention of dynamite at some point, as well as nitroglycerin production. I suspect that will arrive sooner than picric acid or large quantities of smokeless powder. OTOH, a smaller production of smokeless powder would still be enough to supply the Scout Snipers.

Or maybe smokeless revolvers with a sound suppressor for Nynian's people :^)

-- Bob G

gbabafan wrote:China has a new, plentiful andprobably effective littoral combat fleet of small, fast and stealthy warships designed essentially to deny access by US carrier groups to their coastal waters,

Er... For what reason the US carriers should go to the Chinese coastal waters?

As i recall, the combat range of F/A-18 is about 770 km, and it could be increased significantly with air refueling from the fellow F/A-18. And it isn't coastal waters at all.

These stealthy surface ships - ranging from PT-sized trimaran missile boats (like their type 022s) to DDGs (like their new type 052s and 054s) - are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

Er... China's Type 052D is almost as big as the USN "Arleigh Burke". They definitely aren't cheaper.

Pound for pound, our larger and more expensive boats outgun their's, but they have more of them than we can reasonably hope to sink.

And so? The US naval aviation is perfectly able to sunk ANY number of small warships, as soon as they went outside the range of effective chinese aviation cover. Let's not forget, how effective is aviation against small boats with rudimentary air defense... As i recall, during the "Morvaird" operation, the pair of iranian F-4 took no more than 5 minutes to sunk 80% of Iraq navy (about ten missile and torpedo boats).

are cheap to build in such numbers that they can sneak up on and swarm our larger, heavily and much expensive (valuable) warships.

And the US have more than enough of even cheaper, smaller and effective anti-ship missiles to devastate the chinese navy. The problem is, that the small warships is extremely vunerable to air and missile attacks, because they haven't any effective air defense.

This is about asymmetric warfare to chase LCN ships from the Desnairian and Siddarmarkian coasts. If Charis attempts to respond by building more expensive ships to fight off their swarms, they'd be making exactly the same mistake the US is with the Independence LCS program. The better bet would be to empower Tarotians or Siddarmarkians with similarly low tech solutions and fight fire with fire. Either that, or occupy Desnair.

And let me make some things straight. What are you proposed is nothin more than the old "Jeune Ecole": the conception of replacing the big, costly warships with small, fast boats, and to replace the big naval battle with "continious attacks".

The problem is, that it wouldn't work. The small, fast "swarming" boats are too vunerable to weather and sea conditions, they have a mobility and range problems. And it's VERY hard to operate the large fleet of small units. Usually, the enemy ocean-going ships would just destroy the swarming fleet part by part, by concentrating the superior firepower on the few in any time.