Sonja Hemphill

Yow wrote:A modern day Sonja Hemphill that might have slipped your radar.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

"Amazing Grace" has always been one of my heroes. Heroines?

Hi Hutch,

Yep, Adcock is also one of my heroes.

Remember too that Mckeon worked on the FTL.com, and surreptitiously reviewed the WDB recommendations that HH made earlier in IEH at Adcock's request to get the 'shooter's PoV', which he then revealed to HH before they got captured.

L

Hutch wrote:Remember, Sonja wasn't (and never claimed to be) a lone wolf--she had been part of the weapons development projects for many years, and learned from the best, including a couple of smart guys named D'Orivile and Winton....

And I expect that while the WDB might have it's flakes, like the Commander that approached Honor at the end of On Basalisk Station, it also has its' share on very bright, very creative people whom look to Sonya for approval and input and deeply care about their work.

And it is Soyna's job not just to think of things to keep them busy, but get those genius-level folks working together and on target--not the easiest job in the universe, I'm sure.

All that said, for all that Soyna Hemphill has and will do, quiet, unassumming, and incredibly capable Admiral Jonas Adcock will always be my hero, after House of Steel.

runsforcelery wrote:

Yow wrote:A modern day Sonja Hemphill that might have slipped your radar.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

"Amazing Grace" has always been one of my heroes. Heroines?

I know this lady.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_Kennedy

Despite some controversies (or perhaps exemplified by them?), I will tell you with confidence that her soul could have posed for Honor's when you were creating her. And that is the highest praise I could give either one of them.

dreamrider

I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...

Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

cthia wrote:I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...

Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

Question is would she let you. A personal sacrifice yes, if for the greater good and for the strategic and tactical gain it might produce if they're clear enough. If it is just for her own sake? No. Besides IMCO, only the Grayson's could pull it off to the last spacer. Everybody else would hesitate increasing additional and unnecessary loss of life in a daring do rescue attempt. Which is why I say she wouldn't let you.

cthia wrote:
A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

In a sense it depends on the circumstances.

One interesting measure of how many lives and ships Honor's life is worth can be found when we examine how Honor herself was posed the question in Echoes of Honor.

She could have sent word to Grayson/Manticore as soon as they captured the first ship, but choose not to. The given reason was because she knew that Grayson would pull ships to evacuate her come hell or high water and it would result in either gaps in the Alliance's deployments and/or prisoners being left behind.

As to how I would view the question? Take out the 'moral' part of the question and simply view it in terms of cost/benefit and risk/reward. I'm certain that if it were a rescue mission of some sort you would be able to crew entire fleets out of pure volunteers.

Honor is a very public figure in the GA, she's one of the best tacticians/strategists and also an excellent educator/trainer. She is adept both financially and politically and aids the cause as a spokesperson and 'strategist' of an extremely high level. She has a good reputation with the public and military alike and thus has a high morale value, especially in the eyes of a certain planet of Manticore's allies. The benefits she provides the GA and the militaries thereof are very high.

If you think of it in the following terms: Honor's leadership (in whichever forms) are a force multiplier. Honor directly and indirectly increases the combat power (effectiveness) of GA ships. Increased effectiveness translates to greater chance of victory and also lower casualties. Using this kind of measure (and factoring in Honor's prolong lifespan) I would say that in that sense her value is comparable to an entire SD(P) squadron - possibly more. Whether such a trade is moral or not depends on the circumstances. Now that sounds like equivocation but keep in mind that there is a difference between sending someone on a risky mission and executing them in cold blood. If it were a 100% certainty that the deaths of 20,000 crew would result in the survival of Honor (no other benefits)? I personally would choose to preserve the lives of the crew, I could not bring myself to treat them just as numbers in that situation.

Now it is extremely unlikely something like this would ever occur as Honor and her protégées would always make the 'right' decision. The 'right' (moral) decision is exemplified in Honor staying with Ajax (and Mike Henke) at Solon for as long as possible but then leaving to preserve the rest of the task force.

The moral concept that Honor herself seems to follow is that sacrificing the lives of many to preserve the life of a particular individual devalues the lives of those being sacrificed.

On the other hand she also accepts that certain positions and offices require protection and bodyguards. E.g. the steadholder's guard. She personally 'took the bullet' flying her personal yatch to block the missile in Ashes of Victory as well.

When evaluating Honor's worth, keep in mind that there's no guarantee that without her influence Manticore and Haven would have been able to overcome their differences so adroitly. As valuable as she is as a tactician and teacher, perhaps her single greatest contribution to galactic history (at least so far) was her contributions to the creation of the Grand Alliance.

Without her, Victor and Anton don't have a voice in the Manticoran inner circle.
Without her, Elizabeth doesn't have the persistent voice of doubt about the Republic of Haven.
Without her, Eloise has to deal with a diplomat who can't read her (and everyone else) so well.
Without her, the Havenites don't have that one ,"well, she's an aristocrat, but at least she earned it" figure to be the embodiment of Manticore in their perceptions.
Without her, the Manticoran people may be a lot more reluctant to embrace an alliance with the Republic of Haven.
Without her, Chien-lu Anderman doesn't have that one person he trusts as the representative of Manticore.
Without her, Beowulf may not be so certain that Manticore is so firmly on their side when it comes to the genetic slave trade.

Honor stitched the Grand Alliance together through sheer force of personality (and a fair amount of coincidence) in a remarkably short time, and even despite everything else she's done that is probably her most important legacy.

cthia wrote:I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...

Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

I hear what you are saying, but Honor herself would value herself the same as the lowest rating. That's what's so special about her and it's an attitude at the heart of the Saganami tradition.

Don

cthia wrote:I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...

Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

The only problem is that in most ways, the jeune ecole was right. It's worth noting here that Honor was prejudiced against jeuene ecole thinking for four main reasons.

(1) She didn't know about Garm or the rest of King Roger's secret R&D programs. As a result, she didn't know that Hemphill's pursuit of a "panacea" to solve the material warfare school's problems was actually based on a rather realistic assessment of weapons projects under current development. To be fair, virtually none of the other members of the jeuene ecole knew that any more than Honor did, but one can argue (indeed, Honor would argue) that her own use of LACs is not all that different from using a CL to kill an SD. The tradeoff in lives and material is vastly on favor of "using up" a squadron or two or three of LACs to take out a single SD, and she knows it. In that sense, Honor has matured as a tactician since OBS.

(2) Honor's rejection of the jeuene ecole (and its willingness to accept deliberately sacrificial tactics) owed a great deal to her study of naval history and to the fact that naval battles for the last couple of hundred years had all been attritional and yet had seldom been decisive when they were fought between equivalent opponents. Because of the ability of the weaker fleet to break off and run for it, simple attrition seemed to her to have demonstrated its futility as a war winner, which meant that ultimately total casualties would probably be higher than they might have been otherwise because the war would stretch on longer (in the absence of decisive battles). In short, she recognized that something new was needed to break the existing tactical paradigm's sterility, but she didn't believe the jeune ecole had the answer (which, based on known hardware, it did not) and rejected (and resented) the willingness of a bunch of armchair strategists pining for weapons it did not (and, so far as she knew, would not) possess to embrace the sacrifice of real, breathing human beings in pursuit of pie-in-the-sky, "gimmickry-based" tactics.

(3) Manticore possessed the smaller fleet. Attrition usually works best for the larger fleet, which can absorb the losses it accepts and keep on coming until it grinds the smaller fleet into dust. Honor believed that Manticore needed tactics which would overcome that numerical disadvantage and, so far as she or anyone outside Gram knew, she had to find them using conventional weapons which were only incrementally superior to those of Haven. In other words, she felt that the jeune ecole, with known weapons capabilities, was a strategic and tactical dead end at a time when Manticore couldn't afford to allow anything to divert it from the search for "real world" solutions using "real world" hardware and capabilities.

(4) Honor saw (as Hemphill did; give her her due) that tactics ultimately depend on the balance of weapons-vs-platforms. By this, I mean that if you have a weapon that can be decisive, it normally needs to be mounted in a platform which will allow it to be decisive. Historically, the reason capital ships have existed is simply that they represent the most effective means of projecting and focusing combat power. Another way to look at that would be to say that the deploying power gets the most efficient use of manpower and material by creating a 30,000-ton WWI-era dreadnought battleship (let's say) which can readily engage and destroy an entire 6-ship squadron of 8,000-ton cruisers under anticipated battle conditions. The dreadnought has a crew of perhaps 700-800, the cruiser squadron has a combined crew requirement of 1,800 to 2,400, and the dreadnought displaces 30,000 tons whereas the cruisers displace 48,000 tons. Of course, the cruisers can be built much more rapidly and so can be replaced a lot faster than the dreadnought could be, but the dreadnought can almost certainly be repaired and returned to service much more rapidly than the equivalent tonnage of cruisers can be placed in service from a standing start. And, of course, none of the above considers the purely morale effect of sending out the cruisers when every man aboard them knows they're almost certain to be sunk without taking down the dreadnought with them. To Honor's thinking, this meant that tactics had to be built around platforms and weapons concepts which would permit battles to be won under normal combat conditions, good or bad, but on the basis of what she knew about near-future weapon systems, the jeune ecole seemed to be advocating "one off" solutions. That is, they seemed to her to rely on either accepting a loss rate she knew the RMN couldn't sustain against superior PN numbers or introducing a surprise weapon or maneuver which would produce victory despite the PN's numerical superiority. She didn't believe the first option was possible, and she gave the Peeps credit for being smart enough to adapt their own tactics to deal with any surprise weapons or maneuvers before they lost the war. Had she seen missile pods or --- especially --- the MDM and FTL communications coming in OBS, her attitude towards the jeune ecole would have been very different. Indeed, I would argue that you can see it beginning to evolve, whether she herself recognized it or not, as early as Honor of the Queen when she still had no clue about what was about to come out of Gram.

The point of all of the above is that Honor was a superior, pragmatic tactician who insisted (correctly) that tactical doctrine must be based upon the actual capabilities of the tonnages and weapons one has rather than on the tonnages and weapons one wishes one had. She didn't think the jeune ecole was doing that. For that matter, Hemphill probably didn't think most of the jeune ecole was doing that. Those members of it who didn't know about Gram or the work already ongoing on Ghostrider were basing their hopes on those incremental systems superiorities which were public knowledge (at least within the RMN), and that incremental superiority was insufficient to make the jeune ecole's rejection of "conventional" tactical wisdom effective. Even Hamish Alexander, who was in a better position than most to know what was happening behind the scenes, had no concept of everything that was being worked out in Gryphon orbit. Both he and Honor (and Hemphill, really) would have agreed that in the absence of Gram, victory had to be found in some development or adaptation of existing tactical thinking that took into account the increased lethality of the laserhead.

I would also point out (as I have before) that Hemphill never envisioned Fearless as a prototype for some sort of SD-killing cruiser class. Fearless was a test bed for the weapons package she mounted, and the purpose of creating a test bed was to evaluate it in fleet maneuvers. She never saw it as anything else, but when Honor potted D'Orville's flagship in a successful surprise attack, Sonja was delighted (in no small part because of the past history between her and D'Orville). She would have been more than human (which she is not) not to have wanted to do it again and not to have "proven" she'd been right in the rest of the maneuvers. She was disappointed when that didn't happen, and as Adcock and Roger knew about her from the beginning, her "people skills" were . . . underdeveloped. It's hardly surprising that her disappointment and frustration manifested to those about her (including Honor) as anger at the messenger rather than at the message.

Finally, about the notion that "a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!" This is, unfortunately, not true. Or, to put it another way, what the hell is your MVP doing aboard a light cruiser in the first place? Honor was not the Star Kingdom's MVP in OBS. She was an outstanding junior starship commander who had a long way to go before she emerged as Fleet Admiral Alexander-Harrington. Had she died fighting Sirius, she might have become one of the great "what ifs" or the RMN in retrospect, but at the time such speculation would have been badly misplaced. The greatest fighting admirals in history all came up through smaller ships and junior roles. There is no way of knowing how many potential "MVPs" died along the way, but I strongly suspect that the number of dead potential MVPs greatly exceeds the number who made it through the winnowing process. The history of the Honorverse would have been unrecognizably different if she'd died in Basilisk . . . but no one in the Honorverse would have known it.

There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her. Completely aside from all moral consideration of expending hundreds or thousands of live to preserve hers because of how much "one life worth" (which, BTW, is a concept Honor herself would completely reject), Honor's death in action at this time would be of incredible value to the RMN. The SEM and the GA would lose whatever services she might yet perform (and I'm not trying to minimize her potential future achievements), but the RMN --- and the entire Grand Alliance, for that matter --- would get a modern Edward Saganami whose value as inspiration, role model, and rallying point would be literally incalculable. Remember the Grayson's reaction to her "execution" in Basilisk. Now project that same sort of reaction across the entire GA.

Would you really want to be the Mesan Alignment after killing Honor Harrington?

cthia wrote:
I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...

Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.

runsforcelery wrote:
The only problem is that in most ways, the jeune ecole was right. It's worth noting here that Honor was prejudiced against jeuene ecole thinking for four main reasons.

(1) She didn't know about Garm or the rest of King Roger's secret R&D programs. As a result, she didn't know that Hemphill's pursuit of a "panacea" to solve the material warfare school's problems was actually based on a rather realistic assessment of weapons projects under current development. To be fair, virtually none of the other members of the jeuene ecole knew that any more than Honor did, but one can argue (indeed, Honor would argue) that her own use of LACs is not all that different from using a CL to kill an SD. The tradeoff in lives and material is vastly on favor of "using up" a squadron or two or three of LACs to take out a single SD, and she knows it. In that sense, Honor has matured as a tactician since OBS.

(2) Honor's rejection of the jeuene ecole (and its willingness to accept deliberately sacrificial tactics) owed a great deal to her study of naval history and to the fact that naval battles for the last couple of hundred years had all been attritional and yet had seldom been decisive when they were fought between equivalent opponents. Because of the ability of the weaker fleet to break off and run for it, simple attrition seemed to her to have demonstrated its futility as a war winner, which meant that ultimately total casualties would probably be higher than they might have been otherwise because the war would stretch on longer (in the absence of decisive battles). In short, she recognized that something new was needed to break the existing tactical paradigm's sterility, but she didn't believe the jeune ecole had the answer (which, based on known hardware, it did not) and rejected (and resented) the willingness of a bunch of armchair strategists pining for weapons it did not (and, so far as she knew, would not) possess to embrace the sacrifice of real, breathing human beings in pursuit of pie-in-the-sky, "gimmickry-based" tactics.

(3) Manticore possessed the smaller fleet. Attrition usually works best for the larger fleet, which can absorb the losses it accepts and keep on coming until it grinds the smaller fleet into dust. Honor believed that Manticore needed tactics which would overcome that numerical disadvantage and, so far as she or anyone outside Gram knew, she had to find them using conventional weapons which were only incrementally superior to those of Haven. In other words, she felt that the jeune ecole, with known weapons capabilities, was a strategic and tactical dead end at a time when Manticore couldn't afford to allow anything to divert it from the search for "real world" solutions using "real world" hardware and capabilities.

(4) Honor saw (as Hemphill did; give her her due) that tactics ultimately depend on the balance of weapons-vs-platforms. By this, I mean that if you have a weapon that can be decisive, it normally needs to be mounted in a platform which will allow it to be decisive. Historically, the reason capital ships have existed is simply that they represent the most effective means of projecting and focusing combat power. Another way to look at that would be to say that the deploying power gets the most efficient use of manpower and material by creating a 30,000-ton WWI-era dreadnought battleship (let's say) which can readily engage and destroy an entire 6-ship squadron of 8,000-ton cruisers under anticipated battle conditions. The dreadnought has a crew of perhaps 700-800, the cruiser squadron has a combined crew requirement of 1,800 to 2,400, and the dreadnought displaces 30,000 tons whereas the cruisers displace 48,000 tons. Of course, the cruisers can be built much more rapidly and so can be replaced a lot faster than the dreadnought could be, but the dreadnought can almost certainly be repaired and returned to service much more rapidly than the equivalent tonnage of cruisers can be placed in service from a standing start. And, of course, none of the above considers the purely morale effect of sending out the cruisers when every man aboard them knows they're almost certain to be sunk without taking down the dreadnought with them. To Honor's thinking, this meant that tactics had to be built around platforms and weapons concepts which would permit battles to be won under normal combat conditions, good or bad, but on the basis of what she knew about near-future weapon systems, the jeune ecole seemed to be advocating "one off" solutions. That is, they seemed to her to rely on either accepting a loss rate she knew the RMN couldn't sustain against superior PN numbers or introducing a surprise weapon or maneuver which would produce victory despite the PN's numerical superiority. She didn't believe the first option was possible, and she gave the Peeps credit for being smart enough to adapt their own tactics to deal with any surprise weapons or maneuvers before they lost the war. Had she seen missile pods or --- especially --- the MDM and FTL communications coming in OBS, her attitude towards the jeune ecole would have been very different. Indeed, I would argue that you can see it beginning to evolve, whether she herself recognized it or not, as early as Honor of the Queen when she still had no clue about what was about to come out of Gram.

The point of all of the above is that Honor was a superior, pragmatic tactician who insisted (correctly) that tactical doctrine must be based upon the actual capabilities of the tonnages and weapons one has rather than on the tonnages and weapons one wishes one had. She didn't think the jeune ecole was doing that. For that matter, Hemphill probably didn't think most of the jeune ecole was doing that. Those members of it who didn't know about Gram or the work already ongoing on Ghostrider were basing their hopes on those incremental systems superiorities which were public knowledge (at least within the RMN), and that incremental superiority was insufficient to make the jeune ecole's rejection of "conventional" tactical wisdom effective. Even Hamish Alexander, who was in a better position than most to know what was happening behind the scenes, had no concept of everything that was being worked out in Gryphon orbit. Both he and Honor (and Hemphill, really) would have agreed that in the absence of Gram, victory had to be found in some development or adaptation of existing tactical thinking that took into account the increased lethality of the laserhead.

I would also point out (as I have before) that Hemphill never envisioned Fearless as a prototype for some sort of SD-killing cruiser class. Fearless was a test bed for the weapons package she mounted, and the purpose of creating a test bed was to evaluate it in fleet maneuvers. She never saw it as anything else, but when Honor potted D'Orville's flagship in a successful surprise attack, Sonja was delighted (in no small part because of the past history between her and D'Orville). She would have been more than human (which she is not) not to have wanted to do it again and not to have "proven" she'd been right in the rest of the maneuvers. She was disappointed when that didn't happen, and as Adcock and Roger knew about her from the beginning, her "people skills" were . . . underdeveloped. It's hardly surprising that her disappointment and frustration manifested to those about her (including Honor) as anger at the messenger rather than at the message.

Finally, about the notion that "a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!" This is, unfortunately, not true. Or, to put it another way, what the hell is your MVP doing aboard a light cruiser in the first place? Honor was not the Star Kingdom's MVP in OBS. She was an outstanding junior starship commander who had a long way to go before she emerged as Fleet Admiral Alexander-Harrington. Had she died fighting Sirius, she might have become one of the great "what ifs" or the RMN in retrospect, but at the time such speculation would have been badly misplaced. The greatest fighting admirals in history all came up through smaller ships and junior roles. There is no way of knowing how many potential "MVPs" died along the way, but I strongly suspect that the number of dead potential MVPs greatly exceeds the number who made it through the winnowing process. The history of the Honorverse would have been unrecognizably different if she'd died in Basilisk . . . but no one in the Honorverse would have known it.

There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her. Completely aside from all moral consideration of expending hundreds or thousands of live to preserve hers because of how much "one life worth" (which, BTW, is a concept Honor herself would completely reject), Honor's death in action at this time would be of incredible value to the RMN. The SEM and the GA would lose whatever services she might yet perform (and I'm not trying to minimize her potential future achievements), but the RMN --- and the entire Grand Alliance, for that matter --- would get a modern Edward Saganami whose value as inspiration, role model, and rallying point would be literally incalculable. Remember the Grayson's reaction to her "execution" in Basilisk. Now project that same sort of reaction across the entire GA.

Would you really want to be the Mesan Alignment after killing Honor Harrington?

First off RFC, thanks for bringing it to my escaped attention, in a previous post, that Sonja was Janacek's cousin. I read it but didn't assimilate it. Doh!

In answer to your final question of this post...
No sir! Uh uh!! Not...a...chance!!!

There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her.

Truly RFC, somewhere in one of your books, leaflet I'm thinking, you should include this. Damn passage had me tearing up! Whew! Now that's an impressive resume. Rose, can I borrow tissue? I, I...seem to be out. 'snif'

But I'm a bit paranoid. It frightens me this post. You wouldn't be preparing me for the untimely loss of Honor because I'm her biggest fan would you?

About that 'light cruiser' thing, didn't Honor have a nasty habit of choosing less armored ships as her flag, particularly because the enemy would expect her to be aboard an SD? Or is the big difference that she'd at least choose a ship of the wall? Glad you brought that up, because she seemed to have a nasty habit, much to my chagrin, of flying her flag not on the most armored. Saved her bacon a time or two as well, if I remember correctly.