Korea

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:ISTM that the Good News here is that the Northers
closed the gates while the Southrons were at home
in the South, instead of doing it during business
hours and trapping them in Kaesong.

HTM

Tenshinai wrote:NK now disallowing access to the Kaesong coop industrial area... Now that´s potentially seriously worrying.

With that being their primary "hard" currency source (2bn$/y?), messing with its operations is blatantly stupid and pretty much unheard of, as it´s mostly been kept running normally during all previous "arguments".

plus starting to reopen their nuke plants again,
and apparently now allowing smaller nukes to be used by its army in case of fighting, as opposed to the all out ones.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10875348

I wonder where the point is that they will be too overcomitted to the threats, and be forced to follow through?

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:ISTM that the Good News here is that the Northers
closed the gates while the Southrons were at home
in the South, instead of doing it during business
hours and trapping them in Kaesong.

HTM

From what I heard on the news late last night, originally they closed it during regular business hours. A couple of hours later, they let everyone leave and then closed it again.

viciokie wrote:Not to mention that their tanks are no match for the Abrams tanks that we have there not to mention the highly upgraded M60 tanks the south koreans have. Then there is the =highly integrated artillery that can practically drop a round in your back pocket. Having worked with artillery on a extensive basis i do have a fair idea of what american cannon can do and its scary.

Ehm, SK never used the M60. They have about 900 domestically upgraded M48 that are being phased out surprisingly slowly. Well, maybe not that surprising, they´re still better than the majority of what the North has.

South Korea TRIED to buy M60A1s, but in the end they were found insufficient in the numbers they could be aquired. They needed more of them than USA was willing ( or possibly even could ) sell.

Their primary heavy force however are their ~1500 K1 tanks, about a thousand with the old 105mm L7 gun(that shreds anything NK has anyway) and another almost 500 of the upgraded K1A1 with a 120L44 (basically a copy of the same Rheinmetall gun that the Leopard and the M1A1 carries).
It´s a good bit lighter than US and most European tanks, but since it went into production as late as -85, it could make use of better evolved "chobham" so protection is still good.

Notably, the K1 is based on the original prototype for the US M1 tank. But with a more sensible engine, and some improvements, like an independent high quality sight for the CO(Abrams didn´t get that until the M1A2 upgrade), as well as a rather unusual hybrid suspension system that is apparently VERY good, allowing much better accuracy on the move and extra elevation/depression for the main gun.
Designed and built by Hyundai. With initial prototype design by General Dynamics(they had near zero experience of designing a tank from the start, so they had the first prototype built in USA then brought it home and did some tinkering).


They are just about to start production of the K2 that will replace the K1A1s, which will replace the K1s which will replace the M48s. The K2 ran into some issues with the powertrain(they were almost copying the common German MTU-890, but something got messed up in the process so it got delayed a few years) but it seems it will enter serial production this year. At first with engines from Germany, then they hope to have their own version up and running properly by the time the first 200 are finished.

And the K2, they´re actually slightly heavier than the K1, despite using even newer(and lighter) composite armour AND cutting the crew down to three.
The Japanese Type 10 tank is supposed to have as good armour, but the K2 is almost 15 ton heavier so it´s level of protection as far as anyone knows, is likely on an extreme level.
It´s supposed to be the first tank to truly beat the Challenger 2 in pure ability to survive attacks.

Mixed with what is at least one of the 3 best electronics packages of any tanks (with 2 of the upgraded Leo2 models competing), quite possibly THE best as well as a bunch of other impressive stuff, it should be a real beast. Only a handful in service so far however.

K2 is "completely homedesigned".

Japan is now apparently stationing patriot missiles around just in case, so things seem to be getting a bit more serious....

Spacekiwi wrote:Japan is now apparently stationing patriot missiles around just in case, so things seem to be getting a bit more serious....

Understandable reaction on Japan's part. It has already been established that NK has missiles that can reach Japan.

When I was a kid, I once heard a story about a frog that kept huffing and puffing to make itself look bigger than everybody else. Then the frog did that trick once too often - and exploded like an overfilled balloon.

Definitely get that same vibe from NK. They've been banging away with the "We're warning you guys. We Are C-R-A-Z-Y!" routine. Instead of trying to placate them (as often happened previously), everybody else has basically checked their locks and ammo, and have now just settled back to see what happens next.

7thsealord wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:Japan is now apparently stationing patriot missiles around just in case, so things seem to be getting a bit more serious....

Understandable reaction on Japan's part. It has already been established that NK has missiles that can reach Japan.

When I was a kid, I once heard a story about a frog that kept huffing and puffing to make itself look bigger than everybody else. Then the frog did that trick once too often - and exploded like an overfilled balloon.

Definitely get that same vibe from NK. They've been banging away with the "We're warning you guys. We Are C-R-A-Z-Y!" routine. Instead of trying to placate them (as often happened previously), everybody else has basically checked their locks and ammo, and have now just settled back to see what happens next.

Yeah. Problem is that they might still be crazy enough.

Tenshinai wrote:Yeah. Problem is that they might still be crazy enough.

Or disconnected enough from reality to believe it is anything but a stupid move.

Spacekiwi wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:Yeah. Problem is that they might still be crazy enough.

Or disconnected enough from reality to believe it is anything but a stupid move.

True dat, and whether or not NK really has nukes, they still have enough manpower and weaponry to cause a lot of trouble.

OTOH, they have gotten this far without actually provoking a response this time (though that could just be because everybody else has specifically NOT responded). Given NK's previous recent behaviour (the artillery attack on a SK island, the missile tests, etc.), this could be significant.

NK in general is, from all accounts, going to c##p and just getting worse. As a friend of mine puts such things - "They are up s##t Creek in a barbed-wire coracle".

Could be the leadership is so desperate they are just holding out for some kind of miracle - maybe SK will suddenly surrender, maybe China will send them buttloads of $$$$, naybe the Yankees will go away.

At the current rate of affairs in NK i wonder how long before they will collapse as a state. Two things may trigger it as i see it and you guys may have your own ops as well.

1. ding dongs generals get tired of him and replace him triggering a civl war and a almost immediate collapse.

2. less likely but still possible, NK irritates china just a bit too much and china activates some of thier wet teams in place in NK eliminating a source of irritation in a sudden series of "heart attacks" and "fatal car accidents".

It looks like the new Great Leader isn´t doing his job well enough, and simmering discontent has begun to become not just widespread but occasionally even cause open issues.

To the point where police have been badly beaten up several times in the last year.
Until reading about it in a more focused form the other day i had not realised just how much more "real" and noticeable the NK discontent have become.

Question is if it is enough to make the regime loose control.

viciokie, you forget option 3, people overthrow the regime, more or less. Chaos ensues. Or possibly not if lucky.