How does Honor know so much?

cthia wrote:I think in one of the movies (I know, Hollywood) the idea was that a Captain remained onboard the sub so that he could scuttle her to protect trade secrets.

Hunt for Red October.


The Brits definitely didn't go for captains must sink with the ship and they were one of the world's leading naval powers for a rather long time. But their captains did tend to stay aboard ship as long as possible, to help with getting everybody possible out. That undoubtedly led to many a captain accidentally going down with the ship, as they tried to save 'just one more crewmen'.

Then just like playing a game of Telephone and the original message always changing, one idiot who didn't hear/understand that captains only stay behind to help rescue others, probably started telling people, who told others, who eventually told Hollywood that "captain sinks with the ship".

Whether or not that principle predates the British though, it could be as old as Vikings. That warrior tradition, but with a heavy dose of ships, each ship captain also being a leader of troops. If you f**k up enough to break your ship, it may have been expected you sink with it for being incompetent.

Somtaaw wrote:The Brits definitely didn't go for captains must sink with the ship and they were one of the world's leading naval powers for a rather long time. But their captains did tend to stay aboard ship as long as possible, to help with getting everybody possible out. That undoubtedly led to many a captain accidentally going down with the ship, as they tried to save 'just one more crewmen'.

Then just like playing a game of Telephone and the original message always changing, one idiot who didn't hear/understand that captains only stay behind to help rescue others, probably started telling people, who told others, who eventually told Hollywood that "captain sinks with the ship".

Well, that isn't how it works for Costa Cruiselines, where the captain was among the first of the crew to abandon the ship and the passengers. Part of the reason he got 16 years.

kzt wrote:Well, that isn't how it works for Costa Cruiselines, where the captain was among the first of the crew to abandon the ship and the passengers. Part of the reason he got 16 years.

Not really. He got one year for abandoning the ship. He got the other 15 for causing the shipwreck in the first place. I.E. he likely would still have gotten 15 years even if he stayed on the ship until it wasn't possible.

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:I think in one of the movies (I know, Hollywood) the idea was that a Captain remained onboard the sub so that he could scuttle her to protect trade secrets.

Hunt for Red October.


The Brits definitely didn't go for captains must sink with the ship and they were one of the world's leading naval powers for a rather long time. But their captains did tend to stay aboard ship as long as possible, to help with getting everybody possible out. That undoubtedly led to many a captain accidentally going down with the ship, as they tried to save 'just one more crewmen'.

Then just like playing a game of Telephone and the original message always changing, one idiot who didn't hear/understand that captains only stay behind to help rescue others, probably started telling people, who told others, who eventually told Hollywood that "captain sinks with the ship".

Whether or not that principle predates the British though, it could be as old as Vikings. That warrior tradition, but with a heavy dose of ships, each ship captain also being a leader of troops. If you f**k up enough to break your ship, it may have been expected you sink with it for being incompetent.

There is one example noted in Roscoe's "Submarine Actions in World War 2" of an officer with the rank of Captain choosing to go down with the submarine on which he was a passenger, because his presence among prisoners taken by the Japanese would by itself have revealed invasion plans. For this he received, posthumously, the Medal of Honor.

Most Captains take their duties seriously (well, then you have Pavel Young) but your right that the XO position put you through the Practical Exam of can you perform at the CO level or can you -quickly- learn your way up to the standard set by the service.
So Harrington has looked at her problems/needs to do her job THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE UNLIKE CAPT. YOUNG. It's sometimes called "field expedient modification". AKA You have X, Y and other stuff, you should be able to -roughly- do Z......find a way. Now!

https://www.navalsubleague.org/links/hi ... well-1943/

Captain John P. Cromwell is the man you're thinking of.

cthia wrote: From the annals of OBS

Chapter Seven



"Commander Santos."

"Yes, Captain?"

snip

"... I want a complete inventory of our on-hand recon drones."

snip

"... I want you and your department to begin stripping the sensor heads from the missile bodies in order to fit them with simple station-keeping drives and astrogation packages."

snip

"I imagine we can do the job by swapping the sensor heads into standard warning and navigation beacons. If not, I want a design for a system that will work on my desk by thirteen hundred."

This has always amused me quite a bit. How does Honor know so much about engineering? She seems to be quite knowledgeable about certain aspects of her Chief Engineer's bailiwick. I would have missed it on a Jeopardy question about how much cross training a CO has.

I know that Honor was also trained at tactical.

(Snip!)

As a tactical officer, she would have used recon drones freguently. Thus, it wouldn't be out of line for her to know something on how they were built (and how they differed from missiles).

cthia wrote: From the annals of OBS

Chapter Seven



"Commander Santos."

"Yes, Captain?"

snip

"... I want a complete inventory of our on-hand recon drones."

snip

"... I want you and your department to begin stripping the sensor heads from the missile bodies in order to fit them with simple station-keeping drives and astrogation packages."

snip

"I imagine we can do the job by swapping the sensor heads into standard warning and navigation beacons. If not, I want a design for a system that will work on my desk by thirteen hundred."

This has always amused me quite a bit. How does Honor know so much about engineering? She seems to be quite knowledgeable about certain aspects of her Chief Engineer's bailiwick. I would have missed it on a Jeopardy question about how much cross training a CO has.

I know that Honor was also trained at tactical.

(Snip!)

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:As a tactical officer, she would have used recon drones freguently. Thus, it wouldn't be out of line for her to know something on how they were built (and how they differed from missiles).

That certainly makes sense Robert. It makes a lot of sense actually. The problem is it's a bit inconsistent of Honor. If she knew so much about recon drones, why did she make such a blunder in HoTQ when she was chasing Theisman around Uriel? My then 13-yr-old niece asked me why Honor didn't simply deploy recon drones to see around the planet, which makes sense to me. I got nothing, and I was a bit put off that I didn't think of it myself. But Honor certainly should have thought of it, since she seemed to know so much about recon drones way back in OBS. In HoTQ -- especially considering her prior knowledge and expertise with recon drones -- that fact would have made her actions chasing Theisman around Uriel a tactical fail. IOW, there is no consistency.

That still does not mean that all of you are not correct. That particular tactical fail could simply mean that Honor is only human. But anger doesn't normally cloud her judgement.

cthia wrote:That certainly makes sense Robert. It makes a lot of sense actually. The problem is it's a bit inconsistent of Honor. If she knew so much about recon drones, why did she make such a blunder in HoTQ when she was chasing Theisman around Uriel? My then 13-yr-old niece asked me why Honor didn't simply deploy recon drones to see around the planet, which makes sense to me. I got nothing, and I was a bit put off that I didn't think of it myself. But Honor certainly should have thought of it, since she seemed to know so much about recon drones way back in OBS. In HoTQ -- especially considering her prior knowledge and expertise with recon drones -- that fact would have made her actions chasing Theisman around Uriel a tactical fail. IOW, there is no consistency.

Early recon drones are short ranged and nowhere near as stealthy as the later Ghost Rider ones. You can usually see them coming.

They're good if you think there's someone lying doggo ahead of you in empty space. Enough drones pushed out ahead of you will be likely to detect them - and if they kill the drones that just reveals themselves anyway.

But they're poor at finding ships hiding among or behind known enemies because unless you can swamp the enemy with a lot of drones -- more than a couple cruisers and a destroys would carry -- you're unlikely to have any survive past the known ships long enough to see what they might be covering for.
Trying to push drones out where they can keep telling you what's happening behind Blackbird is virtually certain to have them picked off by the bases own defenses, or the mess of Masadan ships and LACs, or Principality herself, before they can give you even the briefest shapshot.


However - in this case even that is basically moot. Honor doesn't have RDs left to use at Blackbird. To cover Grayson against the risk that Thunder of God/Saladin might reappear (and head that way) while she took her force and basically the entire remaining GSN way out to Blackbird, she'd given them to Grayson to have their freighters deploy as a detection shell -- so she could get an FTL "morse code" warning should Thunder of God reappear. So I wouldn't think she wouldn't have had any left -- as she'd need every drone from her ships just to get meager coverage of inner system.

Honor of the Queen wrote:"At the same time, Captain Harrington, this is going to be time-critical. Not only do we have to worry about the other Havenite's return, but any of your people being held down there aren't going to have vac suits. If the fighting depressurizes their area, they'll be killed. And if it occurs to the Masadans to use them against you as hostages-" His expression was grim.
"Agreed, Sir," Honor said quietly, "but your freighters have deployed our recon drones, and Troubadour and Apollo still have the gravitic sensors to read their transmissions. Should the other Peep return, we should have enough warning to get under way and intercept him with Fearless and Troubadour, particularly since he's most likely to be headed for Blackbird, anyway.

Honor of the Queen wrote:"How's our com link to Troubadour, Joyce?" she asked.
"It's solid, Ma'am, as long as we don't get too far away from her."
"Good." Honor glanced at her com officer, wondering if her question made her sound a prey to anxiety. And then she wondered if perhaps she sounded that way because she was. Metzinger was a good officer. She'd tell her if there were any problems. But with her own gravitic sensors down, Fearless could no longer receive FTL transmissions from the recon drones mounting guard against Thunder of God's return. Her ship was as one-eyed as she was, and without Troubadour's gravitics to do her seeing for her . . .

And Honor would have had the freighters deploy them to maximize the drone's loiter time -- not having to waste any of their power on their drives. Those drones were still out there coaching Honor and Troubadour when Thunder of God did later reappear. They're why they were able to be on the perfect course to intercept her while staying between her and the planet -- and why they were able to stay in position to block her even when she retreated back out of their onboard sensor range.


If Honor hadn't left them to guard the back door -- and instead gotten a bunch picked off trying to monitor what was happening behind Blackbird, Apollo might have been escaped being seriously damaged. But then Honor's little fleet would have been as a serious disadvantage without them in the climactic fight against Thunder of God.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:As a tactical officer, she would have used recon drones freguently. Thus, it wouldn't be out of line for her to know something on how they were built (and how they differed from missiles).

She's an officer. You know what officers say:

"Anything an enlisted can do, an officer can do better."

(at least the officers who aren't pals with Young or Janacek)