A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

cthia wrote:Wasn't there a Cat who had a criminal history? Whatever happened to that Cat? Was he banished?

Can anyone remember any specific details about that incident? What book was it mentioned in?

You might be thinking of an incident mentioned in Chapter 5 of _A Beautiful Friendship_ (a renegade that High Crag Clan had exiled caused considerable trouble for Bright Water Clan, including an attempted kidnapping of kittens for purposes not known; he was hunted down and killed).

That's the smelly Cat in question! AND, that was also our little Jeffery Dahmer in training! If he had succeeded in nabbing the kittens, I'd wager he was either going to shtup them or eat them. Or both. I'd wager eat them!

Albeit, since I don't know the timeline that the MA was interested in acquiring two Cats of their own, this exiled Cat may have had the notion to trade them for some unknown gain??? Unlikely, since he should have been unable to communicate with the MA, but I have to allow for the possibility, however remote. I guess I should also consider that he might have just wanted a starter family of his own.

I wonder why the Cat was exiled. That must have been one smelly cat. However, I can't swallow there has not been more criminally minded Cats. Since the incident was reported in A Beautiful Friendship, Cats hadn't yet met two-legs. So I wonder if meeting tasty mindglows would have mellowed the miscreant Cat.

Thanks Robert!

cthia wrote:Albeit, since I don't know the timeline that the MA was interested in acquiring two Cats of their own, this exiled Cat may have had the notion to trade them for some unknown gain??? Unlikely, since he should have been unable to communicate with the MA, but I have to allow for the possibility, however remote. I guess I should also consider that he might have just wanted a starter family of his own.

I don't think this is a plausible scenario.

First, the MAlign wouldn't pass up the opportunity for capturing this treecat itself. And the treecat, unless is so far gone, would have realised the danger and not engaged with the MAlign at all. (If he were so far gone, he wouldn't be rational enough to think so far ahead)

Second, treecats don't seem to share this type of long-term reward thinking. Nimitz had trouble understanding the concept of firing a pulser from here and hitting something way over there. They do understand long-term planning, but it has to have some basis in their past, shared history: action in the past has resulted in consequences multiple times, so repeating is a good idea. Without having had this type of exchange in the first place, the treecat wouldn't have conceived of the possibility.

Third, if the MAlign had agents with sufficient access to contact the rogue treecat, they wouldn't have needed much more to actually kidnap a few. We know from the SK stories that subduing treecats was possible multiple times, so the fact that none have been successfully kidnapped and extracted from Sphinx tells us that they and the SFS have learned and have closed those gaps.

Fourth, timing. We know that Manpower did try to acquire them early on, when they were only recently discovered. But it appears after that, they like the rest of the Galaxy dismissed them as a simple curious type of pet. We are unsure whether they've realised the treecats are responsible for roping up their intel networks (doesn't look like they are), so it doesn't look like they've revised their assessment yet. And of course, now there's a logistical issue: how to get them to a MAlign lab?

I wonder why the Cat was exiled. That must have been one smelly cat. However, I can't swallow there has not been more criminally minded Cats. Since the incident was reported in A Beautiful Friendship, Cats hadn't yet met two-legs. So I wonder if meeting tasty mindglows would have mellowed the miscreant Cat.

As others have said, it seems treecats have very good early detection and healing techniques, so the incidence ratio of criminal minds must be very low. Their population is low too -- we know there were only 12 million of them in the 20th century. This is 4 centuries after they'd acquired tools and support from the SFS; they don't die from starvation any more and the fire seasons and other natural dangers must be well-controlled. We also know that treecats only have two categories for enemies, so leaving rogue treecats alive must mean that they were not considered a danger to any clans at the time of banishment.

Criminal mindglows might also be very unattractive to treecats, however their own inclination towards deviant behaviour might be. It doesn't follow that a criminal will like another criminal.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Albeit, since I don't know the timeline that the MA was interested in acquiring two Cats of their own, this exiled Cat may have had the notion to trade them for some unknown gain??? Unlikely, since he should have been unable to communicate with the MA, but I have to allow for the possibility, however remote. I guess I should also consider that he might have just wanted a starter family of his own.

I don't think this is a plausible scenario.

First, the MAlign wouldn't pass up the opportunity for capturing this treecat itself.

I thought about that, and you may be right. And they very well could've planned to capture that Cat and many more.

But they may have passed on capturing a single Cat if it was after they had already lost the one in captivity. More than one Cat would appeal to them because the cats could support each other. And of course, several is better than one. Plus, younger Cats may be easier to work with. Easier to mold.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And the treecat, unless is so far gone, would have realised the danger and not engaged with the MAlign at all. (If he were so far gone, he wouldn't be rational enough to think so far ahead)

True, but the Cat could be in a very unhealthy emotional state, being that he was exiled. And he could be vengeful. Caution be damned. Besides, his options were limited. If he saw the MA kill a hexapuma, he could have been thinking about a comrade.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Second, treecats don't seem to share this type of long-term reward thinking. Nimitz had trouble understanding the concept of firing a pulser from here and hitting something way over there. They do understand long-term planning, but it has to have some basis in their past, shared history: action in the past has resulted in consequences multiple times, so repeating is a good idea. Without having had this type of exchange in the first place, the treecat wouldn't have conceived of the possibility.

True again. But again, consider the exiled Cat's emotional state and options. As far as we know, the exiled Cat could have been the reason the MA was successful at capturing the one Cat who died in captivity.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Third, if the MAlign had agents with sufficient access to contact the rogue treecat, they wouldn't have needed much more to actually kidnap a few. We know from the SK stories that subduing treecats was possible multiple times, so the fact that none have been successfully kidnapped and extracted from Sphinx tells us that they and the SFS have learned and have closed those gaps.

I can't imagine Cats being snuck up on. They should be able to taste any other animal's mindglow before it gets too close. But initially they may not understand how close is too close without understanding two-leg weaponry and tech. So you have a point.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Fourth, timing. We know that Manpower did try to acquire them early on, when they were only recently discovered. But it appears after that, they like the rest of the Galaxy dismissed them as a simple curious type of pet. We are unsure whether they've realised the treecats are responsible for roping up their intel networks (doesn't look like they are), so it doesn't look like they've revised their assessment yet. And of course, now there's a logistical issue: how to get them to a MAlign lab?

If you hadn't brought it up, I would have never considered getting them to the lab a problem, once captured. They got that one to the lab.

cthia wrote:I wonder why the Cat was exiled. That must have been one smelly cat. However, I can't swallow there has not been more criminally minded Cats. Since the incident was reported in A Beautiful Friendship, Cats hadn't yet met two-legs. So I wonder if meeting tasty mindglows would have mellowed the miscreant Cat.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:As others have said, it seems treecats have very good early detection and healing techniques, so the incidence ratio of criminal minds must be very low. Their population is low too -- we know there were only 12 million of them in the 20th century. This is 4 centuries after they'd acquired tools and support from the SFS; they don't die from starvation any more and the fire seasons and other natural dangers must be well-controlled. We also know that treecats only have two categories for enemies, so leaving rogue treecats alive must mean that they were not considered a danger to any clans at the time of banishment.

Criminal mindglows might also be very unattractive to treecats, however their own inclination towards deviant behaviour might be. It doesn't follow that a criminal will like another criminal.

No doubt a criminal mindglow is not tasty at all. But about this healing technique. Some sort of brainwashing?

Holding steadfastly to how felines operate, some sort of mass purring is likely. The closest thing to religious chanting that a Cat knows? The hive, they are one with the collective.


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cthia wrote:I can't imagine Cats being snuck up on. They should be able to taste any other animal's mindglow before it gets too close. But initially they may not understand how close is too close without understanding two-leg weaponry and tech. So you have a point.

Have you read the SK stories? No one sneaks up on treecats. They were trapped by technological means which don't have any mindglows at all, so there was nothing in their experience at the time that would have pointed to the danger.

But once they'd learned, all clans would know to avoid such devices. The would-be kidnappers need to get far more creative every time, and given that the information about treecats' intelligence was limited at any time, most likely the kidnappers would keep constantly underestimating them.

Adding one more roadblock: Sphinx becoming far more cosmopolitan means traffic control is much better in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries than it used to be in the early 16th. They'd have full satellite coverage of the planet, including of all treecat domains. Any air car straying into such territory would immediately get the SFS moving. My point here is that a kidnapper needs to also thwart the two-legs' security precautions.

And for what? Until basically "last year," no one would have thought this was worth the effort.

If you hadn't brought it up, I would have never considered getting them to the lab a problem, once captured. They got that one to the lab.

Indeed, but that was a lab on Sphinx, when Sphinx had a population of less than a million humans. Such a lab would either stand out like a sore thumb today or not be effective at all. The MAlign would need to get their top veterinarian and exo-biologists on the planet to be effective.

No doubt a criminal mindglow is not tasty at all. But about this healing technique. Some sort of brainwashing?

We don't know how it works. It appears there's a distinct "profession" inside the treecat society called "mind healers," of whom we've heard very little. Hunters and scouts, we can guess. Memory Singers we know a lot about because of both Sings Truly (Morgana) and Golden Voice (Samantha). Of the other "professions" that are exclusive to treecats because of their unique biology, we don't have info on.

We don't know whether it is brainwashing of some form or another. Even if it is, it is acceptable in their society. But it might be little different from what we do with medication, for example to bipolar disorders.

Holding steadfastly to how felines operate, some sort of mass purring is likely. The closest thing to religious chanting that a Cat knows? The hive, they are one with the collective.

For the big cats, that would be the pride, not the hive.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We know from the SK stories that subduing treecats was possible multiple times, so the fact that none have been successfully kidnapped and extracted from Sphinx tells us that they and the SFS have learned and have closed those gaps.

MAlign have kidnapped treecats (one or more, I don't remember), but the cats always died in captivity (probably due to the same effect when a bonded mate dies). They also did genetic analyzes but couldn't find anything that could explain the cats telepathy.

Joat42 wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We know from the SK stories that subduing treecats was possible multiple times, so the fact that none have been successfully kidnapped and extracted from Sphinx tells us that they and the SFS have learned and have closed those gaps.

MAlign have kidnapped treecats (one or more, I don't remember), but the cats always died in captivity (probably due to the same effect when a bonded mate dies). They also did genetic analyzes but couldn't find anything that could explain the cats telepathy.

I thought that was a single cat, whose mate may have been killed during the kidnapping, which would have been a death sentence for the captured mate. I don't recall it being clear. That is why I suggested several kittens are better than one adult cat. Kittens wouldn't be mated, thus immune to "broken heartedness."

Ok, I know this will never happen. The author would never write something like this.

Let's say the MA perfects a nanite-laced neurotoxin that puts 'Cats under compulsion. It's simple command is {kill... everything that is near}. How quickly would said Cats develop a tendency to take a quick pulsar to the torso? Nobody can afford to take a chance with an out of control Cat. It would be sad, but Cats who have fallen under compulsion would come to be viewed just like the victims of the walking dead.

cthia wrote:Let's say the MA perfects a nanite-laced neurotoxin that puts 'Cats under compulsion. It's simple command is {kill... everything that is near}.

Well your entire theory falls apart right there, because the nanites aren't actual mind control; it's purely a form of physical/body control. And based on prior history on things like the MAlign being described internally as an onion, and then suddenly the Grand Alliance started using the exact same explanation. So when Honor said that Alfred believed the nanites are transferred muscle memory, similar to how prosthetic limbs learn to function, that's more or less how the nanite assassination technique works in reality.

Tim Meares didn't want to kill anybody, let alone Honor's armsman, but he wasn't in control of his body. And since tree-cats are 6-limbed, it's not exactly going to be very easy for the Alignment to train the nanites to dose a bunch of treecats. And presuming the MAlign somehow did have another good way to train a six-limb version for the nanites, they still don't truly know how treecats attack with intent to kill. Because cats attack so uniquely, that old description of resembling a berserk buzzsaw and each strike isn't very deep but with all six limbs going they can dish out a lot.

The Alignment could steal, buy, or otherwise acquire a high-definition copy of the video of Nimitz & Honor fighting to protect Benjamin Mayhew and tried to copy from that, and it still wouldn't work. Any dosed cat would get exactly one kill and then be more or less stuck. Remember that every known use of the nanites for assassinations, the vehicle stood stationary and didn't move or even crouch to try and take cover, their only movement was with their arms. Reaching down and snagging a nearby pulser, holding down the trigger while waving their arm around an entire CIC is the most movement any assassin has ever done.


But let's say the MAlign manage to break most of their apparent limitations. They dose a cat, and they eventually kill one two-leg, and then they'd be stuck, probably twitching atop the body unable to move further. They can't jump to another person, they can't sprint away, they can't go to try hiding in an airvent, under a couch, or up a tree. Meanwhile all nearby treecats would be able to sense that mind-freeze and communicate to any humans nearby. The simple shock of a treecat suddenly killing a known friendly would be enough shock freeze, even a Grayson armsman or Manticoran Palace Guard wouldn't have even drawn his sidearm before the 'kill' was finished.

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:Let's say the MA perfects a nanite-laced neurotoxin that puts 'Cats under compulsion. It's simple command is {kill... everything that is near}.

Well your entire theory falls apart right there, because the nanites aren't actual mind control; it's purely a form of physical/body control. And based on prior history on things like the MAlign being described internally as an onion, and then suddenly the Grand Alliance started using the exact same explanation. So when Honor said that Alfred believed the nanites are transferred muscle memory, similar to how prosthetic limbs learn to function, that's more or less how the nanite assassination technique works in reality.

Tim Meares didn't want to kill anybody, let alone Honor's armsman, but he wasn't in control of his body. And since tree-cats are 6-limbed, it's not exactly going to be very easy for the Alignment to train the nanites to dose a bunch of treecats. And presuming the MAlign somehow did have another good way to train a six-limb version for the nanites, they still don't truly know how treecats attack with intent to kill. Because cats attack so uniquely, that old description of resembling a berserk buzzsaw and each strike isn't very deep but with all six limbs going they can dish out a lot.

The Alignment could steal, buy, or otherwise acquire a high-definition copy of the video of Nimitz & Honor fighting to protect Benjamin Mayhew and tried to copy from that, and it still wouldn't work. Any dosed cat would get exactly one kill and then be more or less stuck. Remember that every known use of the nanites for assassinations, the vehicle stood stationary and didn't move or even crouch to try and take cover, their only movement was with their arms. Reaching down and snagging a nearby pulser, holding down the trigger while waving their arm around an entire CIC is the most movement any assassin has ever done.


But let's say the MAlign manage to break most of their apparent limitations. They dose a cat, and they eventually kill one two-leg, and then they'd be stuck, probably twitching atop the body unable to move further. They can't jump to another person, they can't sprint away, they can't go to try hiding in an airvent, under a couch, or up a tree. Meanwhile all nearby treecats would be able to sense that mind-freeze and communicate to any humans nearby. The simple shock of a treecat suddenly killing a known friendly would be enough shock freeze, even a Grayson armsman or Manticoran Palace Guard wouldn't have even drawn his sidearm before the 'kill' was finished.

Nice post!

I agree with everything you said. Except, the part about muscle memory. Oh, it has been discussed quite a bit. And textev does mention muscle memory. But I never agreed that muscle memory can account for all of it. Controlling muscle memory can account for a victim drawing a pulser, but, then, actually targeting someone specific, or anyone at all, requires a bit more than just muscle memory.

At any rate, I am positing that the MA may make inroads into their nanite research. It could turn out that Cats are even easier to "control."

cthia wrote:I agree with everything you said. Except, the part about muscle memory. Oh, it has been discussed quite a bit. And textev does mention muscle memory. But I never agreed that muscle memory can account for all of it. Controlling muscle memory can account for a victim drawing a pulser, but, then, actually targeting someone specific, or anyone at all, requires a bit more than just muscle memory.

At any rate, I am positing that the MA may make inroads into their nanite research. It could turn out that Cats are even easier to "control."

Of course; there also has to be data acquisition and processing, to recognize the proper moment or command and correctly operate on it. The Admiral had to pull a gun out of a drawer and shoot himself, the officer on the flight deck had to recognize the moment to push the button. the man in the air car had to select a cliff to fly into and the lieutenant had to grab a gun out of another man's holster and turn to fire. So it is a bit more than "muscle memory", but we do do know how much more; however it seems clear that memories cannot be accessed that were unknown to the people coding the nanites.

For the driver to shoot the ambassador or the lieutenant to try to shoot Honor, the nanites need to have facial recognition as one of the triggers.