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January 6th Congressional hearings

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January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:40 pm

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I thought this would be an appropriate subject to ruminate on since the hearings are going on now. Schedule of hearings throughout June with the possibility of more depending on further info since investigation is ongoing. Dates and details about sched are easily googled.

You are invited to share your impressions and thoughts and we can discuss any questions that might come up.

I'll share some impressions in random order about the first hearing...

First off, Liz Cheney's opening presentation was outstanding. I already knew most of the content simply by following the news. But it summarized and laid out the story in an orderly, comprehensive way that was fresh and made sense. She really took it to her fellow Republicans. "Donald Trump will soon be gone. But your dishonor remains." (Not an exact quote.)

Next impression is of Ivanka Trump. When Bahr was telling Trump that the notion that Trump has really won the election was BS, Ivanka believed Bahr! Her voice was a surprising croak. I wonder if she had a cold. Guess who threw Ivanka under the buss as fast as possible! Her hubby didn't come off nearly so well. He wasn't aware of the conversation because he had been busy processing pardons.

Then there was the woman who shared her experience as a capitol police officer trying to contain the crowd. That was powerful, searingly painful even.

Finally, the degree of planning that went into the event was astonishing. I knew that the Oath keepers and the Proud Boys were involved of course. But I hadn't heard prior to this week's hearing that about 250 Proud Boys left the rally prior to Trump's speech to go over to the Capitol and prepare for the mob who would descend upon the place after Trump had sufficiently riled them up... There was a photojournalist embedded caught it on camera.

Finally my most vivid memory of Jan 6 doesn't come from the hearing, but from the actual day. It is the picture of that guy strolling across the rotunda carrying a large Çonfederate flag in space that should be sacred to all Americans. I found that heart wretching at the time.


Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by Joat42   » Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:12 am

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n7axw wrote:Next impression is of Ivanka Trump. When Bahr was telling Trump that the notion that Trump has really won the election was BS, Ivanka believed Bahr! Her voice was a surprising croak. I wonder if she had a cold. Guess who threw Ivanka under the buss as fast as possible! Her hubby didn't come off nearly so well. He wasn't aware of the conversation because he had been busy processing pardons.

If you look at her mannerism and how she moves it's clear she was very uncomfortable and out of her depth.

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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:04 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
n7axw wrote:Next impression is of Ivanka Trump. When Bahr was telling Trump that the notion that Trump has really won the election was BS, Ivanka believed Bahr! Her voice was a surprising croak. I wonder if she had a cold. Guess who threw Ivanka under the buss as fast as possible! Her hubby didn't come off nearly so well. He wasn't aware of the conversation because he had been busy processing pardons.

If you look at her mannerism and how she moves it's clear she was very uncomfortable and out of her depth.


Ivanka is far from being the sharpest knife in the drawer. But she she gave several hours of testimony which was described as helpful Having Ivanka break with daddy dearest is really kind of startling. Jared doing all those pardons is really more important. I wonder if those corruptly issued pardons will hold up in court...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:31 pm

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Next hearing Monday June 13 at 10 am EST
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:01 pm

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Speaking from the other side of the world I find this to be reassuring. The miscellaneous minor flaws in our democracy no longer seem to be so serious.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:48 pm

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Daryl wrote:Speaking from the other side of the world I find this to be reassuring. The miscellaneous minor flaws in our democracy no longer seem to be so serious.

...and to think that the big kerfuffle on this side of the pond is Partygate and Beergate...

Small potatoes indeed.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:29 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
Daryl wrote:Speaking from the other side of the world I find this to be reassuring. The miscellaneous minor flaws in our democracy no longer seem to be so serious.

...and to think that the big kerfuffle on this side of the pond is Partygate and Beergate...

Small potatoes indeed.


Actually, we are going through a rough patch right now. Hopefully we will make our way through it. If we don't, I don't want to live to see it.

I do envy you your problems. But stay alert. Right wing populism is a world wide problem. We had the misfortune of electing Donald Trump who mainstreamed our right wingers. It could happen to you. I hope your politicians are better than our current crop.

Don

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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:52 am

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n7axw wrote:
Michael Everett wrote:...and to think that the big kerfuffle on this side of the pond is Partygate and Beergate...

Small potatoes indeed.


Actually, we are going through a rough patch right now. Hopefully we will make our way through it. If we don't, I don't want to live to see it.

I do envy you your problems. But stay alert. Right wing populism is a world wide problem. We had the misfortune of electing Donald Trump who mainstreamed our right wingers. It could happen to you. I hope your politicians are better than our current crop.

Don

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Mmm. Trump was contained(barely!) by the USA's checks and balances. In the end, it basically came down to the USA's fixed terms, though. Jan 6th was an attempt to overthrow that final safeguard - the electorate.

And the UK's present PM has thrown out the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, reclaiming the power to call an election at will, at a time which is as favourable to them as possible. It's also a weapon to threaten his marginal MPs with. These MPs were the only other check existing in the British system. Now it's "force me out and I might call an election in the time it takes you to pick a new leader."

In the meantime, partygate is a distraction - from the boundary redrawing, bringing in voter ID requirements(with driver licenses and passports backlogged), anti-protest legislation, the failure to "level up" and of course the utterly predictable economic costs of Brexit(which, given the roubles financing the Tory party, looks more than a little suspicious in hindsight).

Back to Jan 6, I think the USA should strongly consider throwing out that Electoral College. It was a reasonable mechanism for a world where there were no telephones, no internet, no cars and no planes, but those days are long past and a requirement to win the popular vote might have prevented Trump(and perhaps Bush) from ever taking office.

All democracies are frail, constantly in need of improvement and repair as rules-mechanics figure out how to play the system, whatever it is, towards the most absurd possible extents: https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/50011224 ... pular-vote

Unfortunately by the time any dangerous flaws are clear, those rules-mechanics tend to be the ones in charge of writing new rules or in a position to veto such efforts.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by n7axw   » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:07 pm

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munroburton wrote:

Mmm. Trump was contained(barely!) by the USA's checks and balances. In the end, it basically came down to the USA's fixed terms, though. Jan 6th was an attempt to overthrow that final safeguard - the electorate.

And the UK's present PM has thrown out the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, reclaiming the power to call an election at will, at a time which is as favourable to them as possible. It's also a weapon to threaten his marginal MPs with. These MPs were the only other check existing in the British system. Now it's "force me out and I might call an election in the time it takes you to pick a new leader."

In the meantime, partygate is a distraction - from the boundary redrawing, bringing in voter ID requirements(with driver licenses and passports backlogged), anti-protest legislation, the failure to "level up" and of course the utterly predictable economic costs of Brexit(which, given the roubles financing the Tory party, looks more than a little suspicious in hindsight).

Back to Jan 6, I think the USA should strongly consider throwing out that Electoral College. It was a reasonable mechanism for a world where there were no telephones, no internet, no cars and no planes, but those days are long past and a requirement to win the popular vote might have prevented Trump(and perhaps Bush) from ever taking office.

All democracies are frail, constantly in need of improvement and repair as rules-mechanics figure out how to play the system, whatever it is, towards the most absurd possible extents: https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/50011224 ... pular-vote

Unfortunately by the time any dangerous flaws are clear, those rules-mechanics tend to be the ones in charge of writing new rules or in a position to veto such efforts.


Thanks for this informative post. I really can't claim to understand Brexit. On the one hand, I understand the economic argument. But look what happened with Greece and how the EU responded to Greece's troubles. Quite a bit of tension over that, wasn't there?

Historically EU is something new, an experiment, if you will. Before when you bring that many cultures together in one entity, you have an empire with all the tension and repression that implies. Will the EU work? I hope so. But I think the odds are unfavorable over the long haul.

Then there is the UK. As a rather strong Anglophile, I hope that that Brexit doesn't pull the UK apart. But on the other hand, I can understand the feeling of those who resent the notion of decision makers in Brussels making decisions for them. Add into that the reality that Britian doesn't fit into Europe very well. For one thing your democratic heritage goes a lot deeper than the rest of Europe. You have really gifted the rest of the world with the gift of human freedom.

Then too, dating back to long before you became the UK, English foreign policy was to prevent any one power from dominating Europe. Right now what EU seems to be is a French German love-fest...precisely what the UK's traditional foreign policy has sought to avoid. There is talk of a EU army. Fine as long as it is directed in self defense against Russia. But times do change, you know. What happens if it is pointed against you? Maybe the best way to prevent that would be to be in rather then out.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: January 6th Congressional hearings
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:18 pm

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n7axw wrote:For one thing your democratic heritage goes a lot deeper than the rest of Europe. You have really gifted the rest of the world with the gift of human freedom.


I realise the UK has had its periods of progressivism, but it's really the nearly unbroken heritage doing the heavy lifting. The House of Lords had parity until 1911 and the House of Commons didn't extend voting rights to all males over 21 until 1918; previously over 40% of those did not have a vote. Women didn't reach electoral equality until 1928.

I'm sorry but having seen this documentary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc ... pendentPOV - I'd say Britain didn't gift anyone anything. Much of the world is still paying for services rendered; it's just become a more sophisticated operation since the peak Queen-and-Empress era.

The real gift of freedom to the world are some of the ideas which went into building America up to what it is today. Your founding fathers' protests at being taxed without being represented gradually led to universal suffrage in lots of places - including the UK, ironically.

The best of those ideas have circled back into reconstructed european nations and hence the EU.
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