ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:Because your Queen is in Check!
Uh... you do realise there is no such chess move, right?
On the contrary. 'Check' simply means "in threat of being captured" on the very next move. Any piece can technically be in check. It is not called check for the game's sake. Because the rules say you cannot ignore the fact that your King is in check. You must honor the condition! You can ignore your Queen being in check because you may wish to sacrifice her.
But! In this case, Beth is actually the King. She is the ruler. She actually wears "the pants" in the MBS as much as her father King Roger did. This forum has had many a problem with befitting analogies. Project! Of course, you can substitute the phrase 'in jeopardy' if it makes accepting it any easier for you.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:In fact, it's very topical: the Queen can be sacrificed, if it wins you the game.
Arrrgh! Please don't remind me of my niece's favorite opening. The Queen's Gambit. The little snot! Decline it, if you ever play against her. You don't stand a chance. But, against men, she likes to toy with their ego. She says men just can't seem to decline it when playing "a girl." Big mistake.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's the King that can't be and can be in Check. In this case, the King wouldn't be a person, but likely the MBS as a whole: if the MAN puts the MBS in Check, then the Manticore Government must do anything it needs to save itself.
Right. It is akin to "controlling the orbitals." Do recall early on in the thread when I asked whether 'controlling the Queen' can be substituted in the place of controlling the orbitals. That is the entire gist of this thread. It reminds me of playing football. Coaches teach you not to fall for a fake, by watching the head. Control the head and the ass will follow. Not that I am calling Beth an ass, you see.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:You have no choice but to trust them, unless you are as cold as everyone else who wishes to solve the problem by tossing Beth's ass under the bus. And Justin. And Monroe...
Of course you have a choice! You can choose to not trust them to keep their word and therefore do everything in your power to come up with contingencies in case they fail to live up to their word. In fact, that's what you should do. Because they won't live up to their word.
No!!! I mean, yes, you can choose to sacrifice her. But NO, sacrificing Beth is really not in your best interest. Politically, militarily, socially, and realistically. You are not the MAlign. Manticore brings its people home. They have sort of a "no man left behind" policy. But the point is moot. We are talking about The Queen of Manticore.
It always comes back to your lack of understanding the value of your own Queen. The MA understands the value of your Queen better than you do. So did Haven. Haven just wasn't aware that the replacement would be just as powerful. Ehm, "Daddy's little girl."
ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, there's no scenario in which the Queen is kidnapped and Monroe is not already dead.
Apparently there is, because it has happened. Perhaps Monroe and many others have been drugged. Knocked out. Remember when I suggested long long ago that there would come a time that the MA will stop sparing its tech and will use it with complete and utter abandon? When the cat is already out of the bag (pardon the pun) then there is no need to spare the capability by worrying about using compulsion too much, when playing for all of the marbles. Consider using compulsion on several of Beth's key personnel or staff. Several!
ThinksMarkedly wrote:If coldly tossing the queen under the bus is one extreme, then emotionally giving in to anything because she is who she is is the other. There's a lot of grey area in the middle and this is what we're arguing.
What grey area? This is anything but! Your revered Queen is in jeopardy, and you'd like to have her back. Listen people. Negotiating for the safe return of an important figure is nothing new under the sun. Please do digest the link I included very early on about America's history of negotiating with the enemy. And for far less exalted people. I continue to be gobsmacked by this issue. You seem to think this is science fiction.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:No, nobody will actually think that the MA can be trusted. There are those who are still against the alliance with Haven -- partly, I believe -- because of trust. But, just like with the question of whether to accept the offer made by Eloise, your nuts are in a vise between a rock and a hard place. There is no choice.
But again, whether you can trust the MA in the long run is secondary and counter-productive to getting the Queen back. That is the more pressing issue on the board right now.
No, it's not secondary, because it depends on what they're asking for you to do in order to get the Queen back. If their demands are what you've said, toothless and naïve as they are, then sure, agree to them because the short- and long-term effects of having agreed to them are minimal.
Finally. There's light at the end of the tunnel. I can't imagine the MA will mind if you think their demands are toothless. They will probably prefer it. I think that is their point. It is engineered to appear "benign." Thus something easily agreed to. Why ask for something you know won't be given. Peace is important to all concerned. A cease-fire is all they care about. Until their malignant spots reappear.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I seriously, seriously doubt anyone would make those demands. They'd ask for more, which would make the Government have to decide whether those short- and long-term effects are worse than losing the Queen.
You keep saying that and I keep scratching my head. It is exactly what Saint-Just asked for! The fact that he didn't have to kidnap the Queen to force it is besides the point. Although he did force the Queen's and the government's hand just as effectively. And the fact that the RMN knew where Saint-Just lived is just as "besides the point."
Focus!, and stop dilly-dallying at the negotiating table. You wouldn't be stalling for time in hopes of an ill-advised rescue attempt against this enemy, would you? Don't.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:And! I do understand everyone's reluctance in doing what you must to get the Queen back, even short of surrender. Oftentimes on the chessboard, a weaker player will give up most of his firepower, and position, trying to save his Queen. You must learn to play without her.
And sometimes they'll offer up the queen to gain an advantage that will lead to victory. It's mighty risky, but it's possible.
My niece haunts me. I have learned to decline the Queen's Gambit against her every time. Which is a psychological win for her of sorts. But I have a better chance of surviving a psychological loss to my ego. Rather than accepting her favorite opening, which is suicide.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:But, considering this particular Queen. Is it a good idea considering the amount of time she ruled her kingdom, and the wheeling and dealing she did with the factions of the government? And her importance to the entire Galaxy at large? Are we absolutely sure the successive ruler and associated government won't end up being worse than High Ridge? For a very long time? A totally new government could result in ending the Grand Alliance by alienating Haven and leading to war. It could alienate Grayson. It could alienate the Andermani.
War is always just one misunderstanding away. Politics is more dangerourous than war.
No, we can't be absolutely sure which one would be worse, depending on what the demands are.
Focus! Losing such an important person would be awful. You do know that. Or rather, you should. Your morale would suck. Do you really think someone as important as Beth wouldn't be worth the effort? Heck, there came a time when the entire Galaxy would have done as much to get Honor back. Talk about missteps that might alienate Grayson. You are flirting with political disaster buddy. Seems I was wrong. Politics is much more dangerous than war.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:cthia wrote:Again, kidnapping the Queen could be a mission saved for a specific set of conditions, like if the MA was alerted that the GA was gearing up to attack.
It's already highly unlikely that the Queen could be kidnapped. It's even less likely that she could be kidnapped at will, at a time of the kidnappers' choosing, without depending on factors out of their control. A successful kidnapping likely depends on the Queen putting herself in a risky situation that the Queen's Own regiment has not realised is such. Operation Hassan could only be launched because the Queen was going to visit the Steadholders; if she were to meet only with the Protector, the operation could never happen.
And the chance of such a condition being present while the GA is preparing to assault Darius is effectively indistinguishable from zero. At such a time, the GA is likely going to be at high alert and the Queen would be elbows-deep into the strategic considerations of such a thing.
You have got to get over this "highly unlikely." Hasn't this enemy taught you that anything is likely? Besides, successful engagements are usually about doing the unlikely.
Operation Hassan was essentially a quick, rushed plan to take advantage of an unexpected situation. Providence. It wasn't planned for eons like I imagine this has been. Your "highly unlikely" seems to affect your judgement too much. You don't believe that Beth's staff could have been infiltrated long ago? There could be several very dear cherished spies amongst Beth's closest staff. You only need to succeed in getting one into place. Then that one can refer another. (Especially after ingeniously producing an opening in the staff by other means.) Their reference would go a long way. Etc. Etc. Good help is hard to come by. They easily become trusted family. It would be a very valuable infiltration cultivated for decades whose time has come. I am sure it will hurt to betray her that way. But duty calls.