Escort Carrier Modification

Extra endurance is nice. And if it's free, then sure take it.
But it's not free - you are paying extra for it.

So especially a systems that's cash strapped needs to carefully evaluate whether the benefits of being able to go longer intervals between resupply outweighs the costs of buying the extra capability.

Jonathan_S wrote:Extra endurance is nice. And if it's free, then sure take it.
But it's not free - you are paying extra for it.

So especially a systems that's cash strapped needs to carefully evaluate whether the benefits of being able to go longer intervals between resupply outweighs the costs of buying the extra capability.

Indeed! And, no, it isn't free. But they may not have a choice in their neck of the woods when assessing their own matters, brought about by realiies beyond their control.

cthia wrote:If riding herd on remote interests a FF doesn't need a freighter (which can be destroyed by pirates) to keep its consumables topped off. And it absolutely might not be able to afford to leave its charge. Unless they want the rats to play when the cat is away.

Jonathan_S wrote: And even the DDs of the late 1890s or early 1900s had sufficient cruising endurance to escort a convoy on the Gregor to Basilisk route; no problem. They just couldn't hang around various Silesian systems attempting to deter pirates for anywhere near as long.

All a pirate had to do was wait the DD out in some cases. Especially if there is any number of delays in the operation, brought on by a corrupt system, to name one. Your escort service has to leave you stranded to get food and gas.[quote]
If the system can only afford a ship defense ship then it's pretty much screwed anyway. Ships have to spend about 1/4 of their time in the yard undergoing maintenance and refits.

If you can't afford at least 3 you only sometimes have one available.

That means waiting out a ship is harder because its replacement should show up to relieve it before it goes back for resupply.


And any hyper-capable warship is substantially more expensive than a LAC (or Corvette); so any system looking to acquire a few would be getting them to supplement its existing LAC forces. So if you're really worried about a pirate blowing up your freighters then escort it with one of your LACs.

After all the mining base needs supplies and fuel too, and send back mined material; so you've already got freighters going back and forth delivering and picking up supplies. It won't increase their transit frequency that much to bring extra fuel, food, and spares for a warship patrolling the area.

And since fixed defenses are cheaper than warships you'd expect the mining base (though not ever output) to have sufficient defenses to deter a pirate raid. Certainly the Grayson ones in HotQ did (and while those defenses weren't adequate to stand off the entire Masadan navy, they'd have been an issue for most pirates. Even with the truly obsolete military tech Grayson had at the time)


And finally if your defenses are largely LAC based, as they would be in any cash strapped system, it's a waste to tie down one of your very few fast response units in a steady patrol near one resource extractor. The major advantage that unit give you is the ability to quickly move between various ships and facilities in the vast volume of your system beyond your hyper limit. So it shouldn't really be tied to fixed area to be 'waited out' in the first place. If it's patrolling the local space around one given remote interest then it's not using its hyper-drive and you're better off assigning that mission to your LAC force.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Extra endurance is nice. And if it's free, then sure take it.
But it's not free - you are paying extra for it.

So especially a systems that's cash strapped needs to carefully evaluate whether the benefits of being able to go longer intervals between resupply outweighs the costs of buying the extra capability.

Indeed! And, no, it isn't free. But they may not have a choice in their neck of the woods when assessing their own matters, brought about by realiies beyond their control.

I'll certainly grant that if they're having to shop for warships on the 2nd hand market that a few old frigates might be the only things in their price range.

And in that case that's better than nothing, and if they've bought them they might as well figure out how to take full advantage of the capabilities they just bought.


It may even be the case that if they're buying new ships from a 3rd party yard that using an existing "off-the-shelf" design that the yard has full plans for might be cheaper that paying for the change orders to delete capabilities you don't really need. And so again the economics might drive them to an existing frigate design instead of an "HPC" design that's more tailored to their needs.


But these aren't saying frigates are the ideal choice for them; simply that they may be the least bad choice available at the time.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Extra endurance is nice. And if it's free, then sure take it.
But it's not free - you are paying extra for it.

So especially a systems that's cash strapped needs to carefully evaluate whether the benefits of being able to go longer intervals between resupply outweighs the costs of buying the extra capability.

Indeed! And, no, it isn't free. But they may not have a choice in their neck of the woods when assessing their own matters, brought about by realiies beyond their control.

Jonathan wrote:I'll certainly grant that if they're having to shop for warships on the 2nd hand market that a few old frigates might be the only things in their price range.

And in that case that's better than nothing, and if they've bought them they might as well figure out how to take full advantage of the capabilities they just bought.


It may even be the case that if they're buying new ships from a 3rd party yard that using an existing "off-the-shelf" design that the yard has full plans for might be cheaper that paying for the change orders to delete capabilities you don't really need. And so again the economics might drive them to an existing frigate design instead of an "HPC" design that's more tailored to their needs.


But these aren't saying frigates are the ideal choice for them; simply that they may be the least bad choice available at the time.

Agreed. As long as you accept that for this system's business plan, greatly extended cruising endurance is a must.

The main reason Frigates are viable. Piracy.

They are not designed to take on other systems. They just aren't. But piracy is another matter.

Pirates use ancient junk and the main reason they are viable is because there is NO PRESENCE of a policing/naval force. So, the #1 combatant formula against piracy is presence. Presence costs $$$.

Frigates are not there to go toe to toe with an enemy. Economically they make no sense to do so. Rather they are cheapest calling cards, reminding all the bad guys that my big bad brother will come a knockin' for a little back street justice.

So, Manticore had Frigates because their MAIN #2 purpose was commerce protection. Not naval scouting, though with new stealthed RD's? Hrmm...

Today, in modern Manticore this is not true. #1, stayed the same, protect the home system, but #2... is ATTACK and being a good ally. In this scenario, if you are spending $$$$$ for attack purposes, then it behooves you to spend your $$$ as efficiently as you can and here Frigates are an utter waste of money as attacking someones system, even a LAC will be equal to your Frigate and FAR cheaper. So cost wise, it behooves you to make better allotment of the money expended in offensive/defensive weapons per extra tonnage for hyper generators, alpha nodes, personnel space for long term deployment, etc, etc.

If you have a medium/large commerce network, but not many enemies whom have multiple stars/worlds to attack regularly, then Frigates are still an option, or if you are dirt poor and cannot afford anything else and are shaving every penny. Of course if dirt poor you are going to buy 2nd hand and not new most likely and who has the most 2nd hand ships? BIG navies who are worried about multi system warfare and they most likely will not have Frigates to sell 2nd hand. So, this is basically why Frigates are nowhere to be seen. Any frigate would have to be purpose built at home and not bought 2nd hand.

cthia wrote:Agreed. As long as you accept that for this system's business plan, greatly extended cruising endurance is a must.

BTW, the business plan may call for that, but it doesn'tm mean the business plan is sound. Remember "garbage in, garbage out:" if the set of assumptions that went in are incorrect, you'll end up with a faulty conclusion. Or there may be mistakes along the way too, like underestimating the costs of operation.

Personally, I don't buy that a cash-strapped system that can only afford a single or pair of frigate is one that has colonies multiple weeks away in hyper. If the warships need extremely long endurance, that means the average time between friendly ports of call is also very high, which means those frigates will be calling on the mining colonies once every 8 weeks or so. That's plenty of time for a pirate to attack, seize the system, leisurely strip everything of value from it, then be on their way with their loot before the frigate shows up..

No, if those outposts are valuable, they need local defence. So you have to start your plan with that. Then you add a warship that travels between the home system and the dependency. This is how I would do it. But that means it's entirely possible the decision makers in that system did it another way and came up with a different conclusion.

Another detail is that these trips are incredibly frequent, in your scenario. That means the cost of operation of these ships is also incredibly high in the long run. What they need is a cheap-to-run ship, not a cheap-to-buy one. Those may cost more upfront, but the business plan will show how soon they break even compared to a cheaper unit.

Relax wrote:The main reason Frigates are viable. Piracy.

They are not designed to take on other systems. They just aren't. But piracy is another matter.

Pirates use ancient junk and the main reason they are viable is because there is NO PRESENCE of a policing/naval force. So, the #1 combatant formula against piracy is presence. Presence costs $$$.

Frigates are not there to go toe to toe with an enemy. Economically they make no sense to do so. Rather they are cheapest calling cards, reminding all the bad guys that my big bad brother will come a knockin' for a little back street justice.

So, Manticore had Frigates because their MAIN #2 purpose was commerce protection. Not naval scouting, though with new stealthed RD's? Hrmm...

Today, in modern Manticore this is not true. #1, stayed the same, protect the home system, but #2... is ATTACK and being a good ally. In this scenario, if you are spending $$$$$ for attack purposes, then it behooves you to spend your $$$ as efficiently as you can and here Frigates are an utter waste of money as attacking someones system, even a LAC will be equal to your Frigate and FAR cheaper. So cost wise, it behooves you to make better allotment of the money expended in offensive/defensive weapons per extra tonnage for hyper generators, alpha nodes, personnel space for long term deployment, etc, etc.

If you have a medium/large commerce network, but not many enemies whom have multiple stars/worlds to attack regularly, then Frigates are still an option, or if you are dirt poor and cannot afford anything else and are shaving every penny. Of course if dirt poor you are going to buy 2nd hand and not new most likely and who has the most 2nd hand ships? BIG navies who are worried about multi system warfare and they most likely will not have Frigates to sell 2nd hand. So, this is basically why Frigates are nowhere to be seen. Any frigate would have to be purpose built at home and not bought 2nd hand.

Though even for anti-piracy since it's extremely difficult for a pirate to detect, much less intercept, a ship in hyper piracy is almost exclusively a normal space problem. And therefore anti-piracy patroling can be done effectively by LACs, as long as they've got a base to operate from within the system. (And, as you note, LACs are more economical to operate that any hyper warship)

So even with a medium/large commerce network frigates seem mostly useful in very specialized circumstances -- only if some number of your trading partners:
a) can't/won't provide presence patrols in their own star-systems to drive away pirates, and
b) will allow you to have naval warships providing that presence, at least when your freighters are there, but
c) either refuse or are unable to sell supplies to your patrolling warship

(Because if the foreign systems you're patrolling for pirates will sell you fuel and food then your warship doesn't need ones with extraordinary cruising endurance)


That combination of a trading partner willing to put up with your warships patrolling their systems for months but refusing to sell fuel and food to them seems a special kind of dysfunctional; and therefore I'd hope would be a pretty rare combination.
Silesia was that anomalous special case.



It seems to me, if you've got a viable trade partner that can't come up with the up-front cash to buy LACs for patrols, that you'd be better off giving them a really attractive no money down financing option on a small LAC base and some export-grade LACs. In the long run that's much cheaper for you that buying and operating frigates so you can forward deploy them out from your territory to patrol theirs. (And probable drives more goodwill, and can probably get you some very favorable trading terms)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:The main reason Frigates are viable. Piracy.

They are not designed to take on other systems. They just aren't. But piracy is another matter.

Pirates use ancient junk and the main reason they are viable is because there is NO PRESENCE of a policing/naval force. So, the #1 combatant formula against piracy is presence. Presence costs $$$.

So even with a medium/large commerce network frigates seem mostly useful in very specialized circumstances -- only if some number of your trading partners:
a) can't/won't provide presence patrols in their own star-systems to drive away pirates, and
b) will allow you to have naval warships providing that presence, at least when your freighters are there, but
c) either refuse or are unable to sell supplies to your patrolling warship

(Because if the foreign systems you're patrolling for pirates will sell you fuel and food then your warship doesn't need ones with extraordinary cruising endurance)

Bolded... herein is where I have a large problem with justifying a frigate for endurance. I Think DW was trying to make an allegory to water based oceanic warfare that just does not translate well to the Honorverse as you pointed out regarding fuel/food.

That being said, I have never understood how anyone can say LAC's can patrol a system either. A system is entirely dependent for its defense at the hyperlimit. Defense in orbit is stupid by a LAC. A fort does this far better so housing LAC's there is a waste of resources. This is very true in short ranged missile combat where LAC's do not have enough time to GET to anywhere useful. So against Pirates, all LAC's do, like all police, is show up after the destruction is over and tag/bag the bodies. This aspect of TIME has only become exponentially worse with the advent of the MDM.

LAC's could patrol if there was a standard star system entry point all freighters used ~~ ALA Ceberus. Otherwise, the Freighters come from all points of the compass at varying degrees of frequency and for that you either need a LOT of LAC's or a hyper capable ship.

PS: Do remember, LAC's traditionalt have FAR LOWER acceleration than a Frigate. Yet another nail in their coffin for anit piracy work at the hyperlimit.

Then add grav waves scenarios etc. Anti piracy is the true justification of the Frigate.

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
So even with a medium/large commerce network frigates seem mostly useful in very specialized circumstances -- only if some number of your trading partners:
a) can't/won't provide presence patrols in their own star-systems to drive away pirates, and
b) will allow you to have naval warships providing that presence, at least when your freighters are there, but
c) either refuse or are unable to sell supplies to your patrolling warship

(Because if the foreign systems you're patrolling for pirates will sell you fuel and food then your warship doesn't need ones with extraordinary cruising endurance)

Bolded... herein is where I have a large problem with justifying a frigate for endurance. I Think DW was trying to make an allegory to water based oceanic warfare that just does not translate well to the Honorverse as you pointed out regarding fuel/food.

That being said, I have never understood how anyone can say LAC's can patrol a system either. A system is entirely dependent for its defense at the hyperlimit. Defense in orbit is stupid by a LAC. A fort does this far better so housing LAC's there is a waste of resources. This is very true in short ranged missile combat where LAC's do not have enough time to GET to anywhere useful. So against Pirates, all LAC's do, like all police, is show up after the destruction is over and tag/bag the bodies. This aspect of TIME has only become exponentially worse with the advent of the MDM.

LAC's could patrol if there was a standard star system entry point all freighters used ~~ ALA Ceberus. Otherwise, the Freighters come from all points of the compass at varying degrees of frequency and for that you either need a LOT of LAC's or a hyper capable ship.

PS: Do remember, LAC's traditionalt have FAR LOWER acceleration than a Frigate. Yet another nail in their coffin for anit piracy work at the hyperlimit.

Then add grav waves scenarios etc. Anti piracy is the true justification of the Frigate.

But on the reverse, If you have sufficient self-owned trade to protect, then you have a burgeoning economy which is providing tax revenue and foreign trading credits. In which case you should be able to buy a CL, with firepower and endurance to protect your far flung economic needs. Most polities are going to fall into 2 baskets: have a vibrant economy and can afford some actual combatants for it's navy, or they don't have a vibrant economy, don't have much trade, and cannot afford a real navy. Few will fall in between.

No one could hope to protect the entire hyper limit, but if you publish that the hyper locus volume nearest the main planet is patrolled, most legitimate traffic will use that hyper locus, allowing you to control them. This is the tact Manticore is using in Silesia, and one would think, most of it's other territories.

Oh, Silesian yards were producing 2 Frigate designs through 1905 (most of both of which went to the export/"private owner" market .) The SCN was buying one of the designs, but was planning on replacing them with a new Destroyer design.