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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 01, 2021 7:50 pm

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Theemile wrote:Sails are only involved if you are in a grav wave. Mantincore is not . The emergence signature is from the downward translation crossing the hyper boundary. You are shedding that extra velocity which was lost as gravitational energy. The slower the translation, the lower the energy. Sail are just energetic (when used) due to the higher speed when downward translating.

If you were translating towing a mass, you have more energy; the extra mass would be seen as a more energetic translation.

I think the emergence signal is related to the energy loss of the downward transition; which should be directly related to the loss of kinetic energy of the ship. (But I didn't look up how to factor relativity into this; though it would normally be a pretty small factor by the time you're down the the Alpha wall, since you lose so much velocity in the downward transitions through all the intervening walls).
You lose 92% of your velocity crossing the Alpha wall, and I assumed that excess energy is absorbed by the wall, making it "ring".

If signal strength is related to KE, then it's affected by both mass and velocity (1/2m*v^2). But that means a ship towing an LD would make a louder signal due to all the extra mass, at whatever velocity they're traveling.

And since the same long range grav sensors that see the emergence can see the wedge of the tow ship they'll be able to see its velocity; and thus could notice the anomalous signal strength.


Seems like system defense would be suspicious if a, say, 4.5 mton freighter emerging at a nice routine 80,000 m/s instead generated the signal of a 20.5m ton ship (assuming a 16 mton LD under tow) of that velocity.

If we assume the signal varies linearly with kinetic energy then a) that'd be 4.5 times as "loud" and b) would be equivalent to that 4.5 mton freighter emerging at 2.13x the velocity (170,750 m/s).

Note that the maximum velocity it could carry with it from the Delta bands is only 110,803 m/s. For a ship with civilian particle shielding to pop into normal space with 170 kps it would have to pause in the Alpha bands and rebuild the velocity lost in downward transitions before then triggering the final downward translation out of hyper.

And that'd be such a weird and inexplicable thing to do that an emergence signal that "loud" from a freighter should attract attention even if system defense didn't actually notice that it was moving far too slowly to generate such a loud signal on its own.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sat May 01, 2021 11:49 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:Sails are only involved if you are in a grav wave. Mantincore is not . The emergence signature is from the downward translation crossing the hyper boundary. You are shedding that extra velocity which was lost as gravitational energy. The slower the translation, the lower the energy. Sail are just energetic (when used) due to the higher speed when downward translating.

If you were translating towing a mass, you have more energy; the extra mass would be seen as a more energetic translation.

I think the emergence signal is related to the energy loss of the downward transition; which should be directly related to the loss of kinetic energy of the ship. (But I didn't look up how to factor relativity into this; though it would normally be a pretty small factor by the time you're down the the Alpha wall, since you lose so much velocity in the downward transitions through all the intervening walls).
You lose 92% of your velocity crossing the Alpha wall, and I assumed that excess energy is absorbed by the wall, making it "ring".

If signal strength is related to KE, then it's affected by both mass and velocity (1/2m*v^2). But that means a ship towing an LD would make a louder signal due to all the extra mass, at whatever velocity they're traveling.

And since the same long range grav sensors that see the emergence can see the wedge of the tow ship they'll be able to see its velocity; and thus could notice the anomalous signal strength.


Seems like system defense would be suspicious if a, say, 4.5 mton freighter emerging at a nice routine 80,000 m/s instead generated the signal of a 20.5m ton ship (assuming a 16 mton LD under tow) of that velocity.

If we assume the signal varies linearly with kinetic energy then a) that'd be 4.5 times as "loud" and b) would be equivalent to that 4.5 mton freighter emerging at 2.13x the velocity (170,750 m/s).

Note that the maximum velocity it could carry with it from the Delta bands is only 110,803 m/s. For a ship with civilian particle shielding to pop into normal space with 170 kps it would have to pause in the Alpha bands and rebuild the velocity lost in downward transitions before then triggering the final downward translation out of hyper.

And that'd be such a weird and inexplicable thing to do that an emergence signal that "loud" from a freighter should attract attention even if system defense didn't actually notice that it was moving far too slowly to generate such a loud signal on its own.

I'll certainly be reading the books with a renewed understanding.

However, it seems intuitive that the mass of a single LD should be able to be hidden inside the simultaneous transition of however many empty freighters.

And since freighters routinely travel in packs for an extra measure of safety, none would be the wiser.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun May 02, 2021 12:28 am

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cthia wrote:I'll certainly be reading the books with a renewed understanding.

However, it seems intuitive that the mass of a single LD should be able to be hidden inside the simultaneous transition of however many empty freighters.

And since freighters routinely travel in packs for an extra measure of safety, none would be the wiser.

Except freighters don't routinely travel in packs. They only do so where escorts can be provided to turn it into a defended convoy; and even then only when the area is exceptionally risky. Travelling in packs is less efficient and costs them money; so they only do so when absolutely necessary.

Any system with a long range sensor net you need effort to avoid and worthy of getting hit by even a single LD is going to be safe enough space that a convoying to it is virtually unheard of; so the pack of freighters will attract attention immediately.

Plus it's extremely uncommon for freighters to travel empty (can't make money that way; and freighters are allergic to not making money), yet their empty state will become obvious no later than when they reach orbit and get inspected. So even if this ruse works, it can only avoid raising suspicion if the LD is planning to strike before the freighters reach orbit and get inspected. (Which might be tricky, as its got less acceleration that most freighters so won't be able to keep up with them)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun May 02, 2021 1:31 am

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We don't know how much energy is released when a ship translates down from alpha and what exactly it's connected to. It seems that there are several factors, only one of them being the relative velocity of the ship in question. The OB attack did try to make the softest translation possible, meaning there have to be ways to minimise, but the text right around that translation makes it clear that there is an energy release no matter what and there's no way to hide it.

Translating with a lot of relative velocity is also known to put strain on the hypergenerator, so civilians do not carry almost any speed, especially freighters. That means they will slow down to as relative stop as is feasible before translating. This plays to the MAlign's plans: the vast majority of ships arriving at any legitimate destination are attempting to arrive as softly as possible, so their doing the same is not going to stand out.

Another factor seems to be the mass or size of the ship (remember that in the HV, every time we speak of mass, we really mean volume...), though I'll confess this is murky. I don't remember textev explicitly saying so, but it seems logical. We know that bigger ships need bigger hypergenerators and take longer to translate, which to me means the energy of the translation is bigger and therefore makes a bigger splash on the alpha wall when it does. The Sharks hid their translation by attaching in groups of 4 and then simultaneously translating. Of course, we don't know if the energy grows linearly with mass or volume or some other dimension, meaning the translation of four 5-million-tonne ships may be equialent to more than, equal to, or less than the translation of one 20-million-tonne ship. I would put money on bigger.

The final factor appears to be the technology of the hypergenerator itself. The more advanced it is, the softer the translation it can make. We know that the MAlign has bigger, brute-force generators because of the streak drive, but whether that means their alpha translations are more efficient or not is an unknown.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Mon May 03, 2021 2:15 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't know how much energy is released when a ship translates down from alpha and what exactly it's connected to. It seems that there are several factors, only one of them being the relative velocity of the ship in question. The OB attack did try to make the softest translation possible, meaning there have to be ways to minimise, but the text right around that translation makes it clear that there is an energy release no matter what and there's no way to hide it.

Translating with a lot of relative velocity is also known to put strain on the hypergenerator, so civilians do not carry almost any speed, especially freighters. That means they will slow down to as relative stop as is feasible before translating. This plays to the MAlign's plans: the vast majority of ships arriving at any legitimate destination are attempting to arrive as softly as possible, so their doing the same is not going to stand out.

Another factor seems to be the mass or size of the ship (remember that in the HV, every time we speak of mass, we really mean volume...), though I'll confess this is murky. I don't remember textev explicitly saying so, but it seems logical. We know that bigger ships need bigger hypergenerators and take longer to translate, which to me means the energy of the translation is bigger and therefore makes a bigger splash on the alpha wall when it does. The Sharks hid their translation by attaching in groups of 4 and then simultaneously translating. Of course, we don't know if the energy grows linearly with mass or volume or some other dimension, meaning the translation of four 5-million-tonne ships may be equialent to more than, equal to, or less than the translation of one 20-million-tonne ship. I would put money on bigger.

The final factor appears to be the technology of the hypergenerator itself. The more advanced it is, the softer the translation it can make. We know that the MAlign has bigger, brute-force generators because of the streak drive, but whether that means their alpha translations are more efficient or not is an unknown.

If the footprint is a function of mass and velocity, it seems logical that the mass of an LD could be hidden within the transition of an empty freighter with the lowest velocity possible. The freighter can always fake technical problems.

The footprint should also be a function of the emerging ship's bearing.

At any rate, the technique should work at least once to insert an LD, which would likely have a chance to get lost in the indecision of bureaucracy.

Ask Chin about the indecision of bureaucracy...

"Hmm... Of all the lunacy in the land. If Third Fleet was just destroyed, then who is this at hand. And what should I do?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Mon May 03, 2021 10:01 am

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cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't know how much energy is released when a ship translates down from alpha and what exactly it's connected to. It seems that there are several factors, only one of them being the relative velocity of the ship in question. The OB attack did try to make the softest translation possible, meaning there have to be ways to minimise, but the text right around that translation makes it clear that there is an energy release no matter what and there's no way to hide it.

Translating with a lot of relative velocity is also known to put strain on the hypergenerator, so civilians do not carry almost any speed, especially freighters. That means they will slow down to as relative stop as is feasible before translating. This plays to the MAlign's plans: the vast majority of ships arriving at any legitimate destination are attempting to arrive as softly as possible, so their doing the same is not going to stand out.

Another factor seems to be the mass or size of the ship (remember that in the HV, every time we speak of mass, we really mean volume...), though I'll confess this is murky. I don't remember textev explicitly saying so, but it seems logical. We know that bigger ships need bigger hypergenerators and take longer to translate, which to me means the energy of the translation is bigger and therefore makes a bigger splash on the alpha wall when it does. The Sharks hid their translation by attaching in groups of 4 and then simultaneously translating. Of course, we don't know if the energy grows linearly with mass or volume or some other dimension, meaning the translation of four 5-million-tonne ships may be equialent to more than, equal to, or less than the translation of one 20-million-tonne ship. I would put money on bigger.

The final factor appears to be the technology of the hypergenerator itself. The more advanced it is, the softer the translation it can make. We know that the MAlign has bigger, brute-force generators because of the streak drive, but whether that means their alpha translations are more efficient or not is an unknown.

If the footprint is a function of mass and velocity, it seems logical that the mass of an LD could be hidden within the transition of an empty freighter with the lowest velocity possible. The freighter can always fake technical problems.

The footprint should also be a function of the emerging ship's bearing.

At any rate, the technique should work at least once to insert an LD, which would likely have a chance to get lost in the indecision of bureaucracy.

Ask Chin about the indecision of bureaucracy...

"Hmm... Of all the lunacy in the land. If Third Fleet was just destroyed, then who is this at hand. And what should I do?"


We're still talking about an 8 Mton freighter making >2x the alpha splash it should make if towing a 16Mton LD. A verge sensor suite wouldn't notice, but a Manty suite probably would.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Michael Everett   » Tue May 04, 2021 2:18 am

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Bouncing back a few pages to the Graser burnout comment, EE "Doc" Smith's Lensman series had the Primary Beam, a weapon so powerful that it would burn itself out in a single shot, but would destroy even an inertialess ship. The Bad Guys invented in in desperation but the Good Guys took the concept and created the actual weapon with ejectable arrays designed to burn out safely and then be replaced by a new array ready for the next shot.

If you know what part is likely to burn out, you can set things up to slot a new part in as soon as the old one goes bang...
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But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 04, 2021 8:23 am

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Michael Everett wrote:Bouncing back a few pages to the Graser burnout comment, EE "Doc" Smith's Lensman series had the Primary Beam, a weapon so powerful that it would burn itself out in a single shot, but would destroy even an inertialess ship. The Bad Guys invented in in desperation but the Good Guys took the concept and created the actual weapon with ejectable arrays designed to burn out safely and then be replaced by a new array ready for the next shot.

If you know what part is likely to burn out, you can set things up to slot a new part in as soon as the old one goes bang...


It sounded like plasma containment - and that was ... explosive.

The MAN also has a way to replace a destroyed Graser - you have another Graser Torp 10 seconds behind the first. :mrgreen:
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed May 05, 2021 4:55 am

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Theemile wrote:
Michael Everett wrote:Bouncing back a few pages to the Graser burnout comment, EE "Doc" Smith's Lensman series had the Primary Beam, a weapon so powerful that it would burn itself out in a single shot, but would destroy even an inertialess ship. The Bad Guys invented in in desperation but the Good Guys took the concept and created the actual weapon with ejectable arrays designed to burn out safely and then be replaced by a new array ready for the next shot.

If you know what part is likely to burn out, you can set things up to slot a new part in as soon as the old one goes bang...


It sounded like plasma containment - and that was ... explosive.

The MAN also has a way to replace a destroyed Graser - you have another Graser Torp 10 seconds behind the first. :mrgreen:

There you go Michael! Thinking outside the box! You may be an MA agent exhibiting alpha tendencies.

Contingency plans for plasma explosions don't sound any more complicated than ejecting the core. At least the graser and assembly is at the skin of the ship where ejection should be simple.

The notion is brilliant and interesting. It reminds me of the heat generated by a spent shell casing. I've seen third degree burns.

Also, a ship-born energy weapon wouldn't have to fire for three full seconds to be more devastating. Simply a much higher activation time than normal, transferring much more energy. Like, say, firing for a full second. What is the normal firing time of energy weapons, anyway? Microseconds?

If the skin of a Spider is heavy laden with hellfire energy weapons, she may have to perform a "spinning" maneuver to bring the energy fire of, let's say, eight satan's spawns to bear. Giving each mount some time before it's services are needed again.

The LDs could up the ante significantly on a full broadside of energy fire. Delivered up close and personal.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 05, 2021 11:52 pm

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cthia wrote:If the skin of a Spider is heavy laden with hellfire energy weapons, she may have to perform a "spinning" maneuver to bring the energy fire of, let's say, eight satan's spawns to bear. Giving each mount some time before it's services are needed again.

The LDs could up the ante significantly on a full broadside of energy fire. Delivered up close and personal.


Again, if the LD needs to fire its ship-mounted weapons, all hell has already broken loose. The ship-mounted guns can be unmistakably tracked back to the source, giving not only position but also velocity vector of the firing ship. Plus, the longer it fires, the more accurate the velocity reading is.

A ship-mounted energy weapon is also extremely short-ranged when compared to a pod-fired missile or a torpedo. It doesn't matter if you extend them to 2 million km: that's way less than 60 million for a true MDM or the unlimited range for a torpedo. So why is the LD firing ship-mounted weapons? Has it shot itself dry of missiles and torpedoes? What kind of ignorant is commanding this ship that has been in stealth for this long, knew he/she was running dry and did not exfiltrate?

The only case I see of firing ship-mounted weapons is of an unexpected arrival, such as what happened to Pierre (junior)'s strike group and HMS Bellerophon. So I'm not saying the ship shouldn't have any offensive energy mounts.

But I am saying it should dedicate its hull area to other things. Like PDLCs, CM tubes and spider tractors. And, of course, the active stealth.
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