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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:13 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote: Moreover, the rule in the HV seems to be that this kind of colonial progress is slow: just look at the fact that a system inhabited for 500 years only has a population of 3 billion (Manticore) and another inhabited for over 1900 barely scratches 20 billion (Beowulf). That means the Beowulf population has doubled at an average of more than 100 years, assuming an initial population of 100k. Darius with a population of 3 billion in 170 years is already a far outlier..


How many of the people in Darius are slaves? The normal population growth rate curves don't really apply to them, as another author noted in a different context, you can just activate more incubators out of the reserve, and probably start a new embryo within two weeks of decanting the tube's last occupant. Plus the population just got a one time shot in the arm as a result of Operation Houdini. Even the "citizen" population doesn't have to actually follow the usual growth curves.


The population of Darius is measured in the 100s of millions - the 10's of thousands moved in Houdini is a drop in the bucket. Supposedly >99% of Darius's population is slaves.

They just don't know they are, because they have never seen any alternatives.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:18 pm

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Textev claims that the LDs were under construction even before Oyster Bay. The only reason they were not used is because they were not ready.

The Great Pyramids are a perfect example if you consider the size of the task. It was a Herculean effort. Even by today's standards. In fact, modern man can't even duplicate the feat even with present technology, even in thrice the time.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:07 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:They're huge compared to missiles, but I'm not convinced they're huge compared to a half million ton hull (equivalent to a very small BC or very large CA). Yes the Sharks were much larger than that and only carried a few torps (strapped on externally). But the Sharks were never designed to be armed with them; they were an engineering test-bed that was evolved into a training platform.

I'd be shocked if you couldn't fit at least 50 torps into something smaller than a Shark if you designed it from the ground up around that system. (Especially if you skimped on Cataphract/missile weapons to keep it closer to a pure stealth attack platform)


Normally, I'd be with you. However, in the HV, those things tend to be absurd in size and mass.

The GTs are established to be 3x the size of a Ghost Rider recon drone, which in turn are 270 tonnes in size and too big to be launched from missile tubes. So each GT must be 1000 tonnes. 50 of them are therefore as massive as a destroyer.

And as they're too big to be launched from tubes, that means the ship must either carry them externally (which is what the Sharks did) and thus carry very few of them, or must have special launch doors. A small ship can't have a hollow core and a launch door, and still be structurally armoured for a fight.

But then again ships do have shuttle bays, don't they?

So... yeah, I'd be with you, but the rules of the HV seem to say this can't be right.

There were about 5,000 salaried employees who formed the core, skilled, workforce (quarry workers, masons, people sailing the stone from quarry to worksite, and the like) then seasonal secondary workers, 16-20,000 would provided less skilled temporary labor during the slow seasons for farming. (But then they'd need to go back to the fields lest Egypt suffer a famine and starve due to lack of farm workers)

But it still took then at least a couple decades of this labor to complete a single pyramid.


Interesting to know, thanks!
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:13 pm

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cthia wrote:Textev claims that the LDs were under construction even before Oyster Bay. The only reason they were not used is because they were not ready.

The Great Pyramids are a perfect example if you consider the size of the task. It was a Herculean effort. Even by today's standards. In fact, modern man can't even duplicate the feat even with present technology, even in thrice the time.
???
Nobody bothers to build things like that, but the largest blocks in the Great Pyramid are apparently "only" 80 tons - with most being closer to 15 tons. Cutting, transporting, and lifting those are easily within the capabilities of present technology. (They'd be oversized loads; but nothing too crazy). And moving 2.5 million blocks is a logistical hassle, but again hardly an insurmountable one.

It'd still cost quite a lot, but I've zero doubt that if Jeff Bezos whipped out his check book and agreed to pay whatever it took that somebody would be able to build a perfect replica of the Great Pyramid in far, far, less than 60 years (thrice the time)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:16 pm

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Theemile wrote:Actually, we have tex-ev of there being 10? stations in Darius orbit building the ships - I believe 3 or so at each. POV was of the Spec ops boss (McBryde's old boss) looking at the bases. We've also been told by A. Detweiler that the build speed was not up to Manty snuff - but on Par with the Havenites at Bolthole, or 3 years for an 8.5 Mton SD(p). (Manty build rate was 20 Months in a hard yard for a 8.8 Mton Invictus, 22 in a dipersed yard prior to OB). A. Detweiler's POV also stated in July? 1921 the ship furthest along was not yet 1/2 finished, yet already larger than the ~5 Mton (borderline BB/DN sized) Shark class ships.

I don't have text in front of me, so numbers might be off slightly, but Darius station pov was post CoG.


10 stations doesn't mean 10 build slips. I can easily envision 4 slips attached to one station.

Indeed we know the build speed wasn't up to Manty standards. No one had reached that level, except Grayson who was after all just copy & pasting the Manty processes (and improving on the fly). And since those ships are bigger, I padded the estimate to say that each one takes 4 years in my calculations.

Thanks for the datum that the one furthest along was not half finished. That puts the ship having started no earlier than Jan 1920, probably not July 1919. That's consistent with my predictions too.

Theemile wrote:The population of Darius is measured in the 100s of millions - the 10's of thousands moved in Houdini is a drop in the bucket. Supposedly >99% of Darius's population is slaves.

They just don't know they are, because they have never seen any alternatives.


Are you sure? I'm not, but I remember quite a different number.

Hundreds of millions would be far closer to the regular pace of HV population growth, though.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:21 pm

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Fox2! wrote:How many of the people in Darius are slaves? The normal population growth rate curves don't really apply to them, as another author noted in a different context, you can just activate more incubators out of the reserve, and probably start a new embryo within two weeks of decanting the tube's last occupant. Plus the population just got a one time shot in the arm as a result of Operation Houdini. Even the "citizen" population doesn't have to actually follow the usual growth curves.


A slave population makes the matters worse.

Aren't the majority of the slaves sterile and short-lived? They can't all be sterile, otherwise we wouldn't have Paulo, but they can't all be fertile either otherwise Manpower would have lost its market. We do know that they also have a host of other genetic defects that shorten their lifespan.

That means the majority of your slave population was quickened from batches, which in turn is a huge investment. Even with automated crèches and instructors, you probably still need a significant fraction of the population as instructors, supervisors, security. So to currently have 100 million slaves, you probably need to dedicate at least 10 million to the production of them.

But it's possible the Darius slaves aren't your Manpower-style slave and can indeed reproduce and teach themselves. As Theemlile said, they're slaves but just don't know it.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:05 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Actually, we have tex-ev of there being 10? stations in Darius orbit building the ships - I believe 3 or so at each. POV was of the Spec ops boss (McBryde's old boss) looking at the bases. We've also been told by A. Detweiler that the build speed was not up to Manty snuff - but on Par with the Havenites at Bolthole, or 3 years for an 8.5 Mton SD(p). (Manty build rate was 20 Months in a hard yard for a 8.8 Mton Invictus, 22 in a dipersed yard prior to OB). A. Detweiler's POV also stated in July? 1921 the ship furthest along was not yet 1/2 finished, yet already larger than the ~5 Mton (borderline BB/DN sized) Shark class ships.

I don't have text in front of me, so numbers might be off slightly, but Darius station pov was post CoG.


10 stations doesn't mean 10 build slips. I can easily envision 4 slips attached to one station.

Indeed we know the build speed wasn't up to Manty standards. No one had reached that level, except Grayson who was after all just copy & pasting the Manty processes (and improving on the fly). And since those ships are bigger, I padded the estimate to say that each one takes 4 years in my calculations.

Thanks for the datum that the one furthest along was not half finished. That puts the ship having started no earlier than Jan 1920, probably not July 1919. That's consistent with my predictions too.

Theemile wrote:The population of Darius is measured in the 100s of millions - the 10's of thousands moved in Houdini is a drop in the bucket. Supposedly >99% of Darius's population is slaves.

They just don't know they are, because they have never seen any alternatives.


Are you sure? I'm not, but I remember quite a different number.

Hundreds of millions would be far closer to the regular pace of HV population growth, though.


Darius was first colonized ~200 years ago. They had constant support, unlike colonies of old, so manpower could easily have brought in several Massive waves of "colonists" early on. A large freighter can hold 50,000 people or more at a time (in steerage- accomodations), so a single convoy of 12 ships could easily drop off >1/2 a million colonists, plus 16 mtons of cargo and return in less than a year with another group the same size.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:09 pm

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Theemile wrote:Darius was first colonized ~200 years ago. They had constant support, unlike colonies of old, so manpower could easily have brought in several Massive waves of "colonists" early on. A large freighter can hold 50,000 people or more at a time (in steerage- accomodations), so a single convoy of 12 ships could easily drop off >1/2 a million colonists, plus 16 mtons of cargo and return in less than a year with another group the same size.


True, but where are you going to recruit 50,000 people where they won't be missed?
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:43 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Normally, I'd be with you. However, in the HV, those things tend to be absurd in size and mass.

The GTs are established to be 3x the size of a Ghost Rider recon drone, which in turn are 270 tonnes in size and too big to be launched from missile tubes. So each GT must be 1000 tonnes. 50 of them are therefore as massive as a destroyer.

Can you explain how you came up with 1000 tons?

David takes pains to mention that a CA class graser like they mount is 3000 tons.

And at 1000 tons it’s roughly 1/3 to 1/5 the side of a modern RMN missile pod. And a 4cmillion ton podlayer could carry over a thousand of them.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:10 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Darius was first colonized ~200 years ago. They had constant support, unlike colonies of old, so manpower could easily have brought in several Massive waves of "colonists" early on. A large freighter can hold 50,000 people or more at a time (in steerage- accomodations), so a single convoy of 12 ships could easily drop off >1/2 a million colonists, plus 16 mtons of cargo and return in less than a year with another group the same size.


True, but where are you going to recruit 50,000 people where they won't be missed?


You're forgetting, It's manpower - you make them. Just whip up a couple of sturdy batches in the standard production line and treat them nice. Keep them isolated and feed them the invented back story. Then in their early teens, ship them to Darius, probably adding drama to the activity, to go along with the story of escaping from the evil "Baba Yaga" men who attacked their home planet looking for babies to eat. And Boom, instant fanatical population.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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