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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:10 pm

Brigade XO
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Hasta shows up and the research people jump into a massive evaluation because they are starting to understand that "something is wrong" and they don't know what has been going on and they don't have a way of delivering missiles to RMN (or any GA) target.

That this stuff is coming from TIY isn't all that surprising (to the SLN) as they have been dealing with that company for centuries. Lots of stuff has come and gone and we don't know how much got as far as serious evaluation by SLN. Of course, TIY has lots of clients and their needs vary. But, you would expect any qualified evaluation of new weapons systems (even if they are a slight improvement over existing capabilites) would want background from the developer and include it in the reporting and recommendations. Or the SLN is so corruption ridden that that kind of thing was routinely skipped in favor of large bribes and presents.

The Alignment has actually had a much petter finger on the paths of development in anything the SLN has been doing as well as anywhere else. They were watching the Haven-Manticore war and trying to learn the basis of the advances though both sides were very closed to outsiders. The other thing to consider is that the Alignment also had a vested interest in maneuvering the SLN (and so many other places) into very tiny incremental movements in design and weapons. Why?
The 1st thing that comes to mind is that they didn't want them making major breakthroughs on their own and could probably stifle various lines of research quietly. Another is that they were in a position to siphon off a lot of money for what were increasingly less and less effective tech at the same time as limiting the SLN (and other's) effectiveness. While the SLN had the mass of thousands of ships to smash any potential opponent (the 800 lb gorilla effect) it required the SLN to focus enough ships and hardware at a target to do that. Sure, intimidation works wonders but when you eventually run into someone who is not intimidated (or is forced to fight) and actually does have superior weapons and tactics) then that part of the gorilla is now just carrion fit only for recycling.
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Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:47 pm

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Yes, Technodyne Industries is on the General Board of Mesa.

"Pearson herself was Vice President of Operations (Mesa) for Technodyne Industries, which was how she found herself on the General Board. Technodyne had suffered major losses—both financially and in terms of prestige—after the disaster of the Battle of Monica, although it had recovered much of the lost ground by providing its newly developed Cataphract long-range missile to the Solarian League Navy. Overall, its position on the General Board was still weaker than it had been, as Pearson was only too well aware. She’d gotten her start in Technodyne’s public relations division, however. That gave her a somewhat different perspective from many of her colleagues, who seemed blissfully unaware of—or, even worse, dismissive of—the public relations implications of what they were discussing, and all of her instincts were ringing loud, insistent alarm bells as she listened to Snyder and McGillicuddy."
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:54 pm

ThinksMarkedly
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Brigade XO wrote:That this stuff is coming from TIY isn't all that surprising (to the SLN) as they have been dealing with that company for centuries. Lots of stuff has come and gone and we don't know how much got as far as serious evaluation by SLN. Of course, TIY has lots of clients and their needs vary. But, you would expect any qualified evaluation of new weapons systems (even if they are a slight improvement over existing capabilites) would want background from the developer and include it in the reporting and recommendations. Or the SLN is so corruption ridden that that kind of thing was routinely skipped in favor of large bribes and presents.


I don't think they were so corrupt that it was routinely skipped, but it did happen. However, in the time of crunch, they may have skipped looking at the gift horse's mouth.
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 am

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:Hasta shows up and the research people jump into a massive evaluation because they are starting to understand that "something is wrong" and they don't know what has been going on and they don't have a way of delivering missiles to RMN (or any GA) target.

That this stuff is coming from TIY isn't all that surprising (to the SLN) as they have been dealing with that company for centuries. Lots of stuff has come and gone and we don't know how much got as far as serious evaluation by SLN. Of course, TIY has lots of clients and their needs vary. But, you would expect any qualified evaluation of new weapons systems (even if they are a slight improvement over existing capabilites) would want background from the developer and include it in the reporting and recommendations. Or the SLN is so corruption ridden that that kind of thing was routinely skipped in favor of large bribes and presents.

The Alignment has actually had a much petter finger on the paths of development in anything the SLN has been doing as well as anywhere else. They were watching the Haven-Manticore war and trying to learn the basis of the advances though both sides were very closed to outsiders. The other thing to consider is that the Alignment also had a vested interest in maneuvering the SLN (and so many other places) into very tiny incremental movements in design and weapons. Why?
The 1st thing that comes to mind is that they didn't want them making major breakthroughs on their own and could probably stifle various lines of research quietly. Another is that they were in a position to siphon off a lot of money for what were increasingly less and less effective tech at the same time as limiting the SLN (and other's) effectiveness. While the SLN had the mass of thousands of ships to smash any potential opponent (the 800 lb gorilla effect) it required the SLN to focus enough ships and hardware at a target to do that. Sure, intimidation works wonders but when you eventually run into someone who is not intimidated (or is forced to fight) and actually does have superior weapons and tactics) then that part of the gorilla is now just carrion fit only for recycling.

That is a very good point. Certainly if applied to any reasonable navy that they would want full disclosure of the tech, limitations, etc. I would also expect them to go one step further as does the USN, of demanding certain specs. But in adopting the arrogance and complacency of the SL along with the fact that the Gorilla's testicles were in a vise,* then all bets are off. I still wonder how much any navy is entitled to.

If Elon Musk is given a shot at the F-35 competitor, how much of that research is the navy entitled to? Other than the delivery of a certain number of jets capable of the requested specs.

* Talk about having your testicles in a vise, see the movie I Spit on Your Grave . . .

OMG! The SLN was in a touchy situation. I think I'm gonna pass out.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Wed May 26, 2021 7:24 pm

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Can a ship tow pods while under stealth, without affecting the stealth? I would imagine towing pods under stealth isn't possible, as the tractors would bleed through.

So, the LD probably won't be towing pods?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 26, 2021 10:13 pm

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cthia wrote:Can a ship tow pods while under stealth, without affecting the stealth? I would imagine towing pods under stealth isn't possible, as the tractors would bleed through.

So, the LD probably won't be towing pods?


What we do know:

1) Towing pods outside the wedge puts considerable strain on the impellers, reducing the available acceleration for the ship. From that, I'd say that an impeller-ship that tows pods outside its wedge would be less stealthy.

2) A large ship can tow pods inside its wedge with little to no effect. Its stealth wouldn't be compromised, I'd say.

3) the LD uses a spider drive, not a wedge... but the spider drive is nothing more than an overpowered tractor. So if it can be stealthy with the spider, I'd say there's no reason why a pure tractor would be a problem for stealth.

What we don't know is whether the pods themselves will be detectable. They're tiny compared to a ship, so they have a much smaller cross-section. However, since they are being powered via the tractor, that means they are irradiating. And unlike the ship itself, it has no dedicated stealth mechanism or smart paint.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 26, 2021 11:14 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
What we do know:

1) Towing pods outside the wedge puts considerable strain on the impellers, reducing the available acceleration for the ship. From that, I'd say that an impeller-ship that tows pods outside its wedge would be less stealthy.

2) A large ship can tow pods inside its wedge with little to no effect. Its stealth wouldn't be compromised, I'd say.

3) the LD uses a spider drive, not a wedge... but the spider drive is nothing more than an overpowered tractor. So if it can be stealthy with the spider, I'd say there's no reason why a pure tractor would be a problem for stealth.

What we don't know is whether the pods themselves will be detectable. They're tiny compared to a ship, so they have a much smaller cross-section. However, since they are being powered via the tractor, that means they are irradiating. And unlike the ship itself, it has no dedicated stealth mechanism or smart paint.

And the tractor/pressor seems to be a grav phenomenon. OTOH a spider is conceptually a ultra-powered version of a tractor and it's very hard to detect. So maybe tractor beam emissions can be picked up by grav sensors at semi-reasonable ranges and maybe they can't; we just don't know.

At least and LD towing pods wouldn't have the impeller issues degrading it's stealth. OTOH I agree that it's unlikely even the MAlign would be willing to semi-expendable lavish pods with expensive (and power consuming) active stealth features. And with only purely passive stealth features towed pods might actually be more visible to active or passive (non-gravitational) sensors than the giant LD towing them is...

We just don't know.


OTOH we're led to believe the LD is a pod-layer (in additional to being able to internally launch graser torps) - so there seems little reason for it to spend much time towing pods around in the first place. It can just keep them on its pod rails and thus fully protected by all the fancy stealth mechanisms it's equipped with until just before it's ready to launch.
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Re: ?
Post by Fox2!   » Wed May 26, 2021 11:23 pm

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cthia wrote:
If Elon Musk is given a shot at the F-35 competitor, how much of that research is the navy entitled to? Other than the delivery of a certain number of jets capable of the requested specs.



Depends on who's paying for the R&D, non-recurring engineering, and tooling. If the government has paid for it, then it belongs to the government. If the company paid for it, it belongs to the company.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 26, 2021 11:38 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
cthia wrote:
If Elon Musk is given a shot at the F-35 competitor, how much of that research is the navy entitled to? Other than the delivery of a certain number of jets capable of the requested specs.



Depends on who's paying for the R&D, non-recurring engineering, and tooling. If the government has paid for it, then it belongs to the government. If the company paid for it, it belongs to the company.
Well, maybe. There are definitely exceptions to that, and limitations as well.

The simplest is the government can, and often does, refuse to buy a weapons system unless the full technical details are handed over too. Sometimes they won't even accept it for trials without that information. No share, no sale.

Then the government could decide to classify the technology, which effectively takes control of it - though they should compensate the company for that even if they don't end up buying the weapons system developed with that now classified technology.

And finally whether or not they classify it governments often impose export restrictions on military technology, research, or weapons systems. So even if the government doesn't know the full details the company may not be able to sell or share their research, or devices build to use it, without explicit permission from the government.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu May 27, 2021 2:24 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH we're led to believe the LD is a pod-layer (in additional to being able to internally launch graser torps) - so there seems little reason for it to spend much time towing pods around in the first place. It can just keep them on its pod rails and thus fully protected by all the fancy stealth mechanisms it's equipped with until just before it's ready to launch.


Actually, pod layers do want to roll pods and keep them tractored, then chaind, for a massive alpha launch. That's what Honor did and Kuzak failed to do at the Battle of Manticore.

And from the earliest pods back in SVW, no one saw them towed. Maybe at the time no one was looking. And maybe with an active impeller, the signal-to-noise is incredibly bad, so you can't see the tractors (like a flashlight with the Sun as a backdrop). But I really think the tractors themselves are not detectable at any reasonable distance.

But as I said, the pods themselves may be. As you said, the MAlign wouldn't want to fit the pods with first-class stealth technology, since it's hella expensive and because the pods are being disposed of. The chance that an enemy could get their hands on some expended pods is too high. So a pod that is feeding power to the missile capacitors, can it be detected at a range?

Please also note that an answer "yes" also implies that system defence pod shoals can be detected at a distance. So an invader can make a surveillance map of where those pods are located before attempting to invade. If they have some area denial weapon that could detonate those pods, they're half-way to conquering the system.
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