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What's the Point of Raoul?

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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:38 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Raoul is the product of an Alpha. Even though a child inherits the DNA of the father, I doubt Hamish dumbed him down too much. And Raoul can receive Academy training while in HS and even graduate Saganami early? Providence can do the rest. That Demon Murphy can put him in command. Murphy don't care how old you are. LOL


That's a baseless argument. The two direct ascendants Raoul has in that Alpha line (Honor and Alfred) do not seem to have extraordinary intelligence. Honor had trouble with maths, remember?

They're very good in their own domains and Honor is definitely the best tactician & strategist of her generation, but she didn't graduate early for anything.

:o :o :o

Graduating early is not a prerequisite nor precursor for intelligence. Neither is doing well on tests. I've championed this argument for Honor before. She did NOT have trouble with math. She had trouble with math on formal tests. Actually, Honor was somewhat a natural with math, as long as she didn't think about it. She could essentially do it in her head in a pinch.

At any rate, if being the best strategist and tactician of her time doesn't indicate a very high intelligence, I don't know what does.

Honor didn't graduate early, but Honor didn't have anyone as a role model but Alfred who himself wasn't on the same career track. Plus Honor and her family had to contend with keeping her genie status under wraps, so graduating early wouldn't have been recommended. Plus, Honor may have held Honor back. Did she even know what she wanted to be when she grew up? She may have been content living inside Nimitz' world, plus preoccupied with her "ugliness."

At any rate, there is no way she and Alfred both are not intellectual giants. No way whatsoever.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:17 pm

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cthia wrote:At any rate, there is no way she and Alfred both are not intellectual giants. No way whatsoever.


You're right that they have very good intelligence in certain aspects. But to go from there to saying that Raoul and Katherine will graduate early so that they are Lt. Cmdrs by the age of 25 is quite a leap. In fact, being who they are, it's quite likely they won't do that.

I did mention Katherine for a reason too: for the original plan to work, we need both children to develop fast enough. Even if your argument is right that Raoul will be very intellectually gifted, it doesn't apply to Katherine since she doesn't have Harrington genes. Therefore, even if the lightning strikes once, it won't twice.

No, I think we can assume that Raoul and Katherine will be no more than spectators for the rest of the books. They may figure on a collaboration with some other author that attempts to explore the Human-treecat relationships and the future of the HV, set after the conflict with the Alignment. This is what I predict.
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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:45 pm

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--snipping--
ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's a baseless argument. The two direct ascendants Raoul has in that Alpha line (Honor and Alfred) do not seem to have extraordinary intelligence. Honor had trouble with maths, remember?

They're very good in their own domains and Honor is definitely the best tactician & strategist of her generation, but she didn't graduate early for anything.

--ummm, yes, she didn't graduate early. But she was identified effectively on arrival as somewhat a "whiz kid", because of the infrequency of someone with "yeoman origins" being among the elite student rather quickly. That tag followed her... but primarily because she also lived up to the RMN's honor code.

That said, there's a big "ummm no..." to be mentioned. In Ashes of Victory, Allison is trying to explain to Honor why she thinks so many Harrington's were adopted by treecat over the years, and she says,
... So far, I've found only three Harringtons who placed below the ninety-fifth percentile in general intelligence, and well over eighty-five percent of those I've been able to check placed in the ninety-nine-plus percentile. You tend to be very smart people, and if I hadn't wound up in the same select company according to my own test scores, I'd probably come all over inferior feeling or something of the sort."


...meaning... in our old fuddy-duddy, pre-diaspora terms... Only 3 of all the Harringtons researched had IQs lower than around 125. 85% of the rest? 140+. Which buys a person nothing if it is not backed up by hard work and mental discipline, which in this plotline, the Harringtons have in abundance. And since Allison gives herself an equal rating from her meritocratic homeworld, we can assume she's a 99th percentiler herself. Plus a wicked sense of humor, what's not to like?

What I can tell you real-world wise, is that the truly gifted AND insighted folks who have put the work in within their chose areas of expertise make connections between factoids, etc. very very quickly. Meaning that HH is not a Mary Sue in this series.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:31 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:At any rate, there is no way she and Alfred both are not intellectual giants. No way whatsoever.


You're right that they have very good intelligence in certain aspects. But to go from there to saying that Raoul and Katherine will graduate early so that they are Lt. Cmdrs by the age of 25 is quite a leap. In fact, being who they are, it's quite likely they won't do that.

I did mention Katherine for a reason too: for the original plan to work, we need both children to develop fast enough. Even if your argument is right that Raoul will be very intellectually gifted, it doesn't apply to Katherine since she doesn't have Harrington genes. Therefore, even if the lightning strikes once, it won't twice.

No, I think we can assume that Raoul and Katherine will be no more than spectators for the rest of the books. They may figure on a collaboration with some other author that attempts to explore the Human-treecat relationships and the future of the HV, set after the conflict with the Alignment. This is what I predict.

Agreed. But the author has a lot of threads he can sew, handwavium he can wield, stories he can tell and curves he can throw. I'm simply saying, don't bet any money on either outcome if you can't afford to lose it.

Besides, Raoul doesn't actually have to graduate at all to strut his stuff. He can simply be a victim of that Demon Murphy and prematurely thrown into the fire under no fault of his own. He can certainly inherit that trait from his mother.

Interestingly enough, Honor graduated much sooner than anyone else in the ways of war, after she formally graduated. She acquired many more credit hours from OJT. :D

As Raoul can likewise obtain before he even has a chance to "turn his tassel."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by cthia   » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:05 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:We must not overlook the possibility of Raoul stepping into Honor's political shoes, there on Grayson and in the Star Kingdom. Think of a Katherine Montaigne with dual citizenship and power.


If she'd died or still does in an upcoming book, sure. With her still alive, recipient of a third generation prolong, he won't have that chance any time soon. Sure, she can delegate to him if he shows aptitude for it.

The character that we've heard from David is that he'd join the navy, so not a politician. But now that everything's changed, maybe his decisions will be different. After all, if his mom is still alive and in the Top 3 Most Celebrated Heroes of the navy, he might want not to join that and constantly get compared to her, or worse, being the recipient of unrequested favours of people trying to get on her good side.

There are so many possibilities for Raoul that my head swims in anticipation. The political aspect of Raoul's worth will follow him wherever he goes. He really doesn't have to adorn those shoes, those shoes adorned him before he was even born. And again, incidental on-the-job training by the galaxy might turn out to be unavoidable. He could be the only hope aboard a pirate ship after being captured, having inherited the technical expertise of his grandfather's tutelage. Storyline can supply us with a sneak peek of his potential at any time. Especially if we consider his treecat abilities. And especially if we consider to what new heights Raoul and any fortunate Cat who happens to adopt him might take the mechanics of bonding.

As an aside. Raoul can become enamored with Grayson and Armsmen, having to carry around his own "balls and chains." Wouldn't it be rather interesting if he chooses to become an Armsman? Is it acceptable to serve as an Armsman for your own family? An Armsman with treecat abilities opens up incredible possibilities for that role.

At any rate, Raoul doesn't have to become an adult to showcase his potential. Most adults consistently made that error regarding my niece. I know better.

Late edit:

IINM, storyline has not given us any premature "snotties" - that is, would-be snotties who haven't yet graduated. Imagine a class of the best students being taken on a field trip aboard ships when the MA shows up.

My five year civil engineering course had an upper junior year (in effect two years as a junior) whereby that year was supposed to be accomplished in conjunction with OJT in your field with some particular company, popularly as an exchange student abroad. Akin to credit hours being accumulated as actual field work.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What's the Point of Raoul?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:06 pm

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cthia wrote:Besides, Raoul doesn't actually have to graduate at all to strut his stuff. He can simply be a victim of that Demon Murphy and prematurely thrown into the fire under no fault of his own. He can certainly inherit that trait from his mother.

Interestingly enough, Honor graduated much sooner than anyone else in the ways of war, after she formally graduated. She acquired many more credit hours from OJT. :D

As Raoul can likewise obtain before he even has a chance to "turn his tassel."


He's not Wesley Crusher and this is not Star Trek. We're not going to see a kid sit on the alpha shift conn before even enrolling in the Academy. Similarly, the Admiralty is not going to give a cruiser to an graduation-expedited ensign fresh out of the Academy (like Kirk was given the Enterprise in the 2008 Star Trek film, after Pike was injured). In both cases, there are (and were!) plenty of qualified officers ready to assume those positions, just waiting for promotion or the opportunity. In one of the ST books, there was a conversation between conn-qualified officers who held Lt. or Ensign rank and how they hated Wesley for denying them the opportunity to stand duty during the alpha shift.

Yes, Honor did end up commanding the War Maiden for a short period of time because of injuries in the main bridge and the secondary being cut off from communication. She was relieved of that duty as soon as possible. Helen Zilwicki achieved at most a tactical officer's position on Hexapuma due to battle damage, not command.

Either case is nice for a short story. It's not meant for a character-in-position-of-authority point of view for a full book, much less multiple books.
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