On Hate Speech

DrakBibliophile wrote:My final post.

Always great to see someone enter a discussion, drop some hot takes, and then leave.

No, wait, it's not: That's behaviour that's generally regarded as bad netiquette and a sign of being a troll.

Hate Speech has been "defined" by some as "Speech That Will Cause/Provoke Harm To Others".

Yes, but how would you define it? You haven't given a definition for yourself yet.

To me that is a Bad definition because it involves "forecasting the future". While the US has "incitement to riot" Laws, the Supreme Court has correctly ruled that such Laws have to be applied "after the fact of the riot" (not before) and that the prosecution has to PROVE Beyond that the Speech actually provoked the riot.

Another definition posted involve "Speech that is intended to deprive some group of their rights". There are three problems with that "definition".

Yes yes yes, we now know how you would not define the term.
Damn, that's some seriously tedious trolling you got there.

(I'm gonna snip out a bunch of waffle here)

Finally, it is one thing for the owners of a private group to say "this sort of speech won't be tolerated here" but another thing for outsiders government or otherwise using various means to force the owners to ban certain speech on their site.

What you are describing here has little to do with freedom of speech, neither in its legal definition nor its informal one.
What you're actually talking about is a concept of "Freedom from consequence": You don't like being criticized, so you're framing criticism as an attack on your freedom of expression.

You're also, predictably, trying to take a stab at the right's current boogeyman "Cancel Culture": You think it's bad that people can just complain to amazon and have them shut down a site full of Nazis. Surprise: I completely agree! It's really bad that Amazon et al have such a large degree of power over speech on the internet!
But you wouldn't be able to stomach the only other feasible option, would you? Because that other option is using tax money to set up and maintain infrastructure that anyone can use to publish their opinions, and how would you like for your tax money to be spent on projects that might help people you don't like?

What's a Nazi?

Too many Liberals don't apparently know the meaning.

"Nazi", "Fascist", "Racists", "Homophobics", "Sexists" have become meaningless terms.

Those "terms" just mean "It is OK to Hate Those People".

"Hate Speech" is also a Meaningless Term as is just an excuse for "Liberals" to hate people.

Of course, I've never heard "Liberals" use the Term to "damn" somebody not on the Right.

The E wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:My final post.

Always great to see someone enter a discussion, drop some hot takes, and then leave.

No, wait, it's not: That's behaviour that's generally regarded as bad netiquette and a sign of being a troll.

Hate Speech has been "defined" by some as "Speech That Will Cause/Provoke Harm To Others".

Yes, but how would you define it? You haven't given a definition for yourself yet.

To me that is a Bad definition because it involves "forecasting the future". While the US has "incitement to riot" Laws, the Supreme Court has correctly ruled that such Laws have to be applied "after the fact of the riot" (not before) and that the prosecution has to PROVE Beyond that the Speech actually provoked the riot.

Another definition posted involve "Speech that is intended to deprive some group of their rights". There are three problems with that "definition".

Yes yes yes, we now know how you would not define the term.
Damn, that's some seriously tedious trolling you got there.

(I'm gonna snip out a bunch of waffle here)

Finally, it is one thing for the owners of a private group to say "this sort of speech won't be tolerated here" but another thing for outsiders government or otherwise using various means to force the owners to ban certain speech on their site.

What you are describing here has little to do with freedom of speech, neither in its legal definition nor its informal one.
What you're actually talking about is a concept of "Freedom from consequence": You don't like being criticized, so you're framing criticism as an attack on your freedom of expression.

You're also, predictably, trying to take a stab at the right's current boogeyman "Cancel Culture": You think it's bad that people can just complain to amazon and have them shut down a site full of Nazis. Surprise: I completely agree! It's really bad that Amazon et al have such a large degree of power over speech on the internet!
But you wouldn't be able to stomach the only other feasible option, would you? Because that other option is using tax money to set up and maintain infrastructure that anyone can use to publish their opinions, and how would you like for your tax money to be spent on projects that might help people you don't like?

DrakBibliophile wrote:What's a Nazi?

Too many Liberals don't apparently know the meaning.

"Nazi", "Fascist", "Racists", "Homophobics", "Sexists" have become meaningless terms.

Those "terms" just mean "It is OK to Hate Those People".

"Hate Speech" is also a Meaningless Term as is just an excuse for "Liberals" to hate people.

Of course, I've never heard "Liberals" use the Term to "damn" somebody not on the Right.

So much for "my final post", I guess?

Not quite sure why you'd reenter the thread only to ask silly question about what terms you don't like mean and not actually respond to people, but you do you I guess.

(As for what I meant by "site full of Nazis": I was specifically referring to social media site Parler and its audience of white nationalists, antisemites and qanon conspiracy theorists; the shorthand "nazi" is quite fitting for that bunch. Especially if it makes people like you mad.)

My are you wrong on Parler. It's not full of just Nazis. There's also those who troll them

Hate Speech is another of those fungible terms that means what someone want's it to mean and is ultimately defined by some group that has been given or taken authority.

If you have ready 1984 you have seen Political Correctness run wild and you also see the foreshadowing of Hate Speech. It's what the people in charge or to whom people in positions of power/influence/authority defer say it is.

That goes along with Racist. Right up there with Counter Revolutionary (but we are not currently in Soviet Russia though it is still "a thing" there).

Who do you offend by ......well almost anything. If you offend the wrong people you lose everything. They don't have to ship you off to a Gulag (vs a bullet in the head or beating to death), they just make you a virtual pariah and take away all of your social contacts, your ability to hold a job and, depending on thier grasp into "the justice system" your assets and freedom.

Look around. Vilification and denouement is alive in well in both social media, "the News" and most political speech.
Wellcome to 1984, next comes Lord of the Flies.

Brigade XO wrote:Hate Speech is another of those fungible terms that means what someone want's it to mean and is ultimately defined by some group that has been given or taken authority.

If you have ready 1984 you have seen Political Correctness run wild and you also see the foreshadowing of Hate Speech. It's what the people in charge or to whom people in positions of power/influence/authority defer say it is.

That goes along with Racist. Right up there with Counter Revolutionary (but we are not currently in Soviet Russia though it is still "a thing" there).

Who do you offend by ......well almost anything. If you offend the wrong people you lose everything. They don't have to ship you off to a Gulag (vs a bullet in the head or beating to death), they just make you a virtual pariah and take away all of your social contacts, your ability to hold a job and, depending on thier grasp into "the justice system" your assets and freedom.

Look around. Vilification and denouement is alive in well in both social media, "the News" and most political speech.
Wellcome to 1984, next comes Lord of the Flies.

Behave like an asshole, be treated like an asshole. Spew bigotry and hate, be treated like a hateful bigot. It's that simple.

Brigade XO wrote:Who do you offend by ......well almost anything. If you offend the wrong people you lose everything. They don't have to ship you off to a Gulag (vs a bullet in the head or beating to death), they just make you a virtual pariah and take away all of your social contacts, your ability to hold a job and, depending on thier grasp into "the justice system" your assets and freedom.

Freedom of speech does not mean that there can't be consequences for speech. If your speech ends up being the thing that makes a group exclude you... whose fault is that?

And yes, I do recognize that this can on occasion result in a disproportionate response that ends up hurting a lot of people who don't deserve to be, but most of the complaints I see about "cancel culture" or "political correctness gone mad" are coming from people who are somehow surprised that even rich white people can be subject to consequences... even if those consequences more often than not seem to include becoming a guest on right wing "news" shows.

To all who have posted in this thread:

I have immensely appreciated your back and forth. Passionate? Absolutely. Sometimes (IMO) a bit snarky? Probably. Worth my time to read? You betcha! Nice to see that people from a lot of different places can have different (and strongly held) views and not feel like they need to resolve their differences with blasters.

Moderation in all things, both the hard right and the extreme left do tend to be intemperate.
One anomaly I'd like to point out concerns the hard right slandering the left by saying that they are "snowflakes who need a safe place", and other such comments implying that they are weak.
,Meanwhile it appears that it's the right who are easily upset by - cancel culture, hate speech laws, political correctness, sexual harassment laws, anti discrimination, climate change, vir,tually everything post 1954.

It's a simple question. Do you wish to fight them with words? Or do you wish to fight them with bayonet and bullets?