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Future of the Renaissance Factor

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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:41 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why would they be ignorant of the ways of the Galaxy? The news they receive is censored and massaged, definitely, but why would that translate to ignorance? And by the way, how is that different from the rest of the Galaxy?

By the very definition of censor and massage.

The populations of Radio-Free Europe (and North Korea) were ignorant because of the same. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity. Ignorance is simply a lack of information. To alleviate that ignorance, the allied powers bombed the enemy with enlightening pamphlets which rained from the sky.

The populations of Darius are not fed unadulterated truths about the galaxy. They are kept loyal by lies. They are controlled by the fear that the galaxy is out to get them. The only way the MA can justify their cruelty is to claim that the enemy is immensely more cruel. If the MA does not sow those seeds, their population will rebel. The existence of the suicide protocols proves that. Ignorance is blasted by truth. Jesse Owens demonstrated that when he single-handedly destroyed the lies of a master race propagated by Hitler. Owens was a human pamphlet dropped from a plane.

The difference from the rest of the galaxy? A radio.

Lies and fake-news can weaponize ignorant masses.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:37 pm

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cthia wrote:By the very definition of censor and massage.

The populations of Radio-Free Europe (and North Korea) were ignorant because of the same. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity. Ignorance is simply a lack of information. To alleviate that ignorance, the allied powers bombed the enemy with enlightening pamphlets which rained from the sky.

The populations of Darius are not fed unadulterated truths about the galaxy. They are kept loyal by lies. They are controlled by the fear that the galaxy is out to get them. The only way the MA can justify their cruelty is to claim that the enemy is immensely more cruel. If the MA does not sow those seeds, their population will rebel. The existence of the suicide protocols proves that. Ignorance is blasted by truth. Jesse Owens demonstrated that when he single-handedly destroyed the lies of a master race propagated by Hitler. Owens was a human pamphlet dropped from a plane.

The difference from the rest of the galaxy? A radio.

Lies and fake-news can weaponize ignorant masses.


And who do you know that listens to the radio on the 2nd century Ante-Diaspora (21st century current era)? How many do you think will listen in the 20th century PD? And why would you pick up a pamphlet to read if you have all the news on your phone?

The big difference between 80 years ago and today, much less 2000 years from now, is the sheer volume of information. Unless we somehow find a solution to that problem, it's quite easy to get lost in the volume of noise that one wouldn't find trustworthy sources.

Anyway, you're right that the population of Darius is kept loyal by way of lies. I'm arguing that so is the population of the RF and quite a few other planets, especially I guess on the Outer Shell. Those populations may have access to Manty media if they care to look for it, but why would they?

Of course, the lies have to be believable. On Darius, they can go unchecked for longer, since there's no way for anyone to offer proof to the contrary, however controversial. On the RF systems, they can't go that far, but the MAlign can slowly pan their populations towards accepting the benefit of genetic improvement and that those who oppose it are enemies of Humanity and progress.
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:50 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:By the very definition of censor and massage.

The populations of Radio-Free Europe (and North Korea) were ignorant because of the same. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity. Ignorance is simply a lack of information. To alleviate that ignorance, the allied powers bombed the enemy with enlightening pamphlets which rained from the sky.

The populations of Darius are not fed unadulterated truths about the galaxy. They are kept loyal by lies. They are controlled by the fear that the galaxy is out to get them. The only way the MA can justify their cruelty is to claim that the enemy is immensely more cruel. If the MA does not sow those seeds, their population will rebel. The existence of the suicide protocols proves that. Ignorance is blasted by truth. Jesse Owens demonstrated that when he single-handedly destroyed the lies of a master race propagated by Hitler. Owens was a human pamphlet dropped from a plane.

The difference from the rest of the galaxy? A radio.

Lies and fake-news can weaponize ignorant masses.


And who do you know that listens to the radio on the 2nd century Ante-Diaspora (21st century current era)? How many do you think will listen in the 20th century PD? And why would you pick up a pamphlet to read if you have all the news on your phone?

It was only meant to represent an all-inclusive moniker for a government that censors and massages, being a stopgap for truth. Radio continues to have a niche market. It is morphing into a convenient news source, because of its convenience. I used radio to listen to the controversial Rush Limbaugh. It was convenient when I was driving long distances. Cellphones can't be used while driving, rather, shouldn't.

I would pick up a pamphlet because they are literally raining from the sky. That's a really effective attention grabbing headliner if any.

At any rate, there will always be people interested in bothering to seek the truth. Some because they are true intellectuals and rotting fish can be smelled for miles away. Consider that even on RF world's there will be very successful businesses and people. At least by current RF standards. And businesses need valid news to do business in the galaxy and to make sound financial decisions. Plus the fact that the grapevine cannot be destroyed, except by the nefarious means of a radio-free government. Do recall that tendrals of the grapevine even be reached the isolated prisoners on Hades about the exploits of the Salamander. And everywhere else in the galaxy about the true nature of Manticore and it's government. Point being, a "radio-free" society is essentially the equivalent of prisoners trapped in a box that is more effective than even the Fortress of Solitude. Prisoners are so isolated they cannot even operate a light switch or a cell phone when they reenter society.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The big difference between 80 years ago and today, much less 2000 years from now, is the sheer volume of information. Unless we somehow find a solution to that problem, it's quite easy to get lost in the volume of noise that one wouldn't find trustworthy sources.

Quite true. And frightening. And admittedly, I can't decide at the moment which is worse, a sheer volume of news both valid and fake. Or none at all.

One effect of a radio-free society is the death of gossip. Gossip is an important vehicle of truth.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Anyway, you're right that the population of Darius is kept loyal by way of lies. I'm arguing that so is the population of the RF and quite a few other planets, especially I guess on the Outer Shell. Those populations may have access to Manty media if they care to look for it, but why would they?

True. Isolation can almost yield the same results as a radio-free society. But although they both yield the same results, they don't represent the same problem. The worlds of the RF can simply acquire themselves "a radio." That will forever remain an option.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Of course, the lies have to be believable. On Darius, they can go unchecked for longer, since there's no way for anyone to offer proof to the contrary, however controversial. On the RF systems, they can't go that far, but the MAlign can slowly pan their populations towards accepting the benefit of genetic improvement and that those who oppose it are enemies of Humanity and progress.


My question about the future of Mesa involves the notion that I don't think the original plan was to completely cut ties with Mesa. It may be unavoidable now. In the long run.

It seems that lots of businesses will fail on Mesa... because. I'm betting that all of the people who were whisked away were very successful and important on Mesa. They had to be to be of use to the MA. It is going to start smelling awfully fishy that the people caught-up in the "rapture" of Houdini were ALL key people on Mesa.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:01 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:By the very definition of censor and massage.

The populations of Radio-Free Europe (and North Korea) were ignorant because of the same. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity. Ignorance is simply a lack of information. To alleviate that ignorance, the allied powers bombed the enemy with enlightening pamphlets which rained from the sky.

The populations of Darius are not fed unadulterated truths about the galaxy. They are kept loyal by lies. They are controlled by the fear that the galaxy is out to get them. The only way the MA can justify their cruelty is to claim that the enemy is immensely more cruel. If the MA does not sow those seeds, their population will rebel. The existence of the suicide protocols proves that. Ignorance is blasted by truth. Jesse Owens demonstrated that when he single-handedly destroyed the lies of a master race propagated by Hitler. Owens was a human pamphlet dropped from a plane.

The difference from the rest of the galaxy? A radio.

Lies and fake-news can weaponize ignorant masses.


And who do you know that listens to the radio on the 2nd century Ante-Diaspora (21st century current era)? How many do you think will listen in the 20th century PD? And why would you pick up a pamphlet to read if you have all the news on your phone?

It was only meant to represent an all-inclusive moniker for a government that censors and massages, being a stopgap for truth. Radio continues to have a niche market. It is morphing into a convenient news source, because of its convenience. I used radio to listen to the controversial Rush Limbaugh. It was convenient when I was driving long distances. Cellphones can't be used while driving, rather, shouldn't.

I would pick up a pamphlet because they are literally raining from the sky. That's a really effective attention grabbing headliner if any.

At any rate, there will always be people interested in bothering to seek the truth. Some because they are true intellectuals and rotting fish can be smelled for miles away. Consider that even on RF world's there will be very successful businesses and people. At least by current RF standards. And businesses need valid news to do business in the galaxy and to make sound financial decisions. Plus the fact that the grapevine cannot be destroyed, except by the nefarious means of a radio-free government. Do recall that tendrals of the grapevine even be reached the isolated prisoners on Hades about the exploits of the Salamander. And everywhere else in the galaxy about the true nature of Manticore and it's government. Point being, a "radio-free" society is essentially prisoners trapped in a box that is more effective than even the Fortress of Solitude.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The big difference between 80 years ago and today, much less 2000 years from now, is the sheer volume of information. Unless we somehow find a solution to that problem, it's quite easy to get lost in the volume of noise that one wouldn't find trustworthy sources.

Quite true. And frightening. And admittedly, I can't decide at the moment which is worse, a sheer volume of news both valid and fake. Or none at all.

One effect of a radio-free society is the death of gossip. Gossip is an important vehicle of truth. The aforementioned grapevine.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Anyway, you're right that the population of Darius is kept loyal by way of lies. I'm arguing that so is the population of the RF and quite a few other planets, especially I guess on the Outer Shell. Those populations may have access to Manty media if they care to look for it, but why would they?

True. Isolation can almost yield the same results as a radio-free society. But although they both yield the same results, they don't represent the same problem. The worlds of the RF can simply acquire themselves "a radio." That will forever remain an option.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Of course, the lies have to be believable. On Darius, they can go unchecked for longer, since there's no way for anyone to offer proof to the contrary, however controversial. On the RF systems, they can't go that far, but the MAlign can slowly pan their populations towards accepting the benefit of genetic improvement and that those who oppose it are enemies of Humanity and progress.


My question about the future of Mesa involves the notion that I don't think the original plan was to completely cut ties with Mesa. It may be unavoidable now.

It seems that lots of businesses will fail on Mesa... because. I'm betting that ALL of the people who were whisked away were very successful. They had to be to be of use to the MA. It is going to start smelling awfully fishy that the people caught-up in the "rapture" of Houdini were ALL key people on Mesa.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:04 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Of course, the lies have to be believable. On Darius, they can go unchecked for longer, since there's no way for anyone to offer proof to the contrary, however controversial. On the RF systems, they can't go that far, but the MAlign can slowly pan their populations towards accepting the benefit of genetic improvement and that those who oppose it are enemies of Humanity and progress.

If you are a Chinese citizen you have access to US media. It apparently isn't that hard to find out how. Of course, you could get sent to a labor camp and have your family impoverished if anyone decides to care that you did. But it is possible.

And it's a LOT easier to have a closed system when accessing something other than the government approved facts requires you get on a starship. And you know how untrustworthy people can't be allowed to do that, right?
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:43 am

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kzt wrote:If you are a Chinese citizen you have access to US media. It apparently isn't that hard to find out how. Of course, you could get sent to a labor camp and have your family impoverished if anyone decides to care that you did. But it is possible.

And it's a LOT easier to have a closed system when accessing something other than the government approved facts requires you get on a starship. And you know how untrustworthy people can't be allowed to do that, right?


That's a case of knowing that news are being censored and therefore something is being hidden from you, but being unable or unwilling to go find out what. Those who are happy with their lot in life will likely not risk it.

That's likely to be the case in Darius. Everyone who was transplanted knows that they are cut off. In fact, the majority of the population knows that, aside from the few fringe loonies from the Flat Darius Society who believe that there isn't a galactic community in the first place.

On the RF systems, you could cut off communications or impose censorship, but it seemed to me that those systems were "cosmopolitan" and had free speech rights or equivalent, at least nominally. So they need to nominally let opposing viewpoints in. But the government can still monitor for seditious behaviour and intervene as necessary, behind the scenes.

I think that this isn't the case for the general population in those worlds because the government didn't know it was being controlled in the first place.
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:04 am

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I have always wondered if the genetic designs of the MA are outwardly visible. For some reason my mind can't shake images of hideous "inhumans." At any rate, since the MA has claimed they have mastered meddling on the taboo side of the Beowulf Code, at some point, can't they just put "samples" of their masterpieces on display to show Beowulf and the galaxy they are wrong. And, were they ever planning to release their findings to the galaxy at large? At some point?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:24 pm

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cthia wrote:I have always wondered if the genetic designs of the MA are outwardly visible. For some reason my mind can't shake images of hideous "inhumans." At any rate, since the MA has claimed they have mastered meddling on the taboo side of the Beowulf Code, at some point, can't they just put "samples" of their masterpieces on display to show Beowulf and the galaxy they are wrong. And, were they ever planning to release their findings to the galaxy at large? At some point?


We're told that Aldona Anisimovna was gorgeous. I'm sure a lot of vanity went into those designs, so the Alpha lines probably have flawless skin (if they didn't cover in tattoos) and resemble whatever passes for their ideal of beauty.

They could just do what you said. And there's a good chance they'd be accepted and proven right. Put sufficient money into marketing and media manipulation, and it will be accepted.

But nooo... they want to do it the hard way.
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:04 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I have always wondered if the genetic designs of the MA are outwardly visible. For some reason my mind can't shake images of hideous "inhumans." At any rate, since the MA has claimed they have mastered meddling on the taboo side of the Beowulf Code, at some point, can't they just put "samples" of their masterpieces on display to show Beowulf and the galaxy they are wrong. And, were they ever planning to release their findings to the galaxy at large? At some point?


We're told that Aldona Anisimovna was gorgeous. I'm sure a lot of vanity went into those designs, so the Alpha lines probably have flawless skin (if they didn't cover in tattoos) and resemble whatever passes for their ideal of beauty.

They could just do what you said. And there's a good chance they'd be accepted and proven right. Put sufficient money into marketing and media manipulation, and it will be accepted.

But nooo... they want to do it the hard way.

Hey! I fell in love with Aldona even knowing she's a misfit. Anyway, pardon me. I forgot that all of the Alignment's people are from Mesa's lines. So they had to look normal. And iinm, additional enhancements that are not genetic are added later.

At any rate, the only reason I can think of that a display or unveiling of their work won't happen is because it may be an actual "crime against nature" or the Beowulf Code, thrust upon the galaxy after Earth's Final Wars. IOW, I don't know if the Beowulf Code actually made dabbling on the taboo side of the code illegal.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Future of the Renaissance Factor
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:28 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote: -SNIP-
the "Malignant Alignment," from people saying "MAlign".

As the originator of this particular bit of shorthand, may I say that it warms my heart to see it still in use years later.

As for my opinion of the RF's future, you must remember that the MAlign is notable for its multilayered plans and willingness to create/dispose of cats-paws, especially unwitting ones. It would not surprise me to find out that the Darius System Navy has been sending survey ships out to explore every system around it in the hope of finding another wormhole that they can use to set up another even-more-distant bolthole should word of Darius leak out. That way, if their control of the RF slips for any reason, they can pull a Houdini MK2 while using their navy to pull another Mike-At-Mesa as a distraction.
Of course, those in charge of the RF are aware that the MAlign has undetectable ships, so they won't want to risk doing anything that could have the ships deployed against them unless someone comes up with a way to counter their de-facto invisibility...
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