What happens to all that debris?

cthia wrote:Ok, here's the thing. The human element is the thing. When your family gets the news of your death, even if not right then, at some point they're going to wonder if you suffered. We always want to know if our loved ones suffered. You don't want them to have suffered. And, of course, you don't want to suffer when you die either. The ideal death I suppose is to die in your sleep. A soldier may want to die saving someone else, but I think even then he'd rather it not be painful.

Some of the solutions we've chosen for the pod system are downright frightening if we consider the human element. Auto shutting mechanisms can close on small hands and legs if a child is involved, or even, as I stated upstream, a small, frail, injured crewmember. Several members of Honor's original crew were described as looking like little kids.

The only passenger ship, and so the only ship likely to be carrying kids, we've see was the liner Artimis. And I get the impression that she uses her shuttles (with their oversize grav-plate equipped boarding ramps) to evacuate rather than carrying military style lifepods. And the couple times we've seen freighter crews abandon ship they've used cargo shuttle; not military style lifepods (since those crews are small enough the whole crew could fit on a single shuttle that the ship already has to carry. So civilian evacuation methods presumably have far different trade-offs than military lifepods do. Whatever the military ones may do the civilian ones probably aren't crushing children's (or anybody else's) limbs.


But if I was a sailor I'd much rather have my hand or leg crushed by an auto-closing hatch so the pod could launch in time than dying because the pod waited for me to get out of the way or press the button myself and therefore didn't get far enough to survive the plasma of the ship's failing fusion reactor.

And, while it doesn't alleviate the immediate suffering, most people in the Honorverse can have a lost limb regenerated (and even the ones that can't can get powered prostetics lightyears beyond what we can do today) so a crippling injury isn't permanent.

Jonathan_S wrote:The only passenger ship, and so the only ship likely to be carrying kids, we've see was the liner Artimis. And I get the impression that she uses her shuttles (with their oversize grav-plate equipped boarding ramps) to evacuate rather than carrying military style lifepods. And the couple times we've seen freighter crews abandon ship they've used cargo shuttle; not military style lifepods (since those crews are small enough the whole crew could fit on a single shuttle that the ship already has to carry. So civilian evacuation methods presumably have far different trade-offs than military lifepods do. Whatever the military ones may do the civilian ones probably aren't crushing children's (or anybody else's) limbs.

Agreed. The analogy is civilian liners and fighter jets. Both are jet-powered aircraft, but one has ejection seats and the other doesn't. Military planes also usually carry parachutes so crewmembers can bail out, but civilian ones don't. Civilians aren't trained in parachuting and would indeed hurt themselves if they tried to jump out (as much as I might have wanted the multiple times the aeroplane flew over the city I live in before continuing on to the hub airport for another hour before I could fly back...).

Civilian survival pods are probably very different from military ones. Civilian ships aren't supposed to be in battle, so any issues usually happen gradually and allow for orderly boarding. Those life boats also likely need to be designed to be foolproof, to prevent ill-advised civilians from putting the lives of everyone inside in danger.

Military pods are meant to be used by trained military personnel. Those drill in evacuation procedures (q.v. Hephaestus), so crewmembers know how to get there and securely strap themselves in their sleep. They also know how to operate the pod, which probably has steering controls, the ability to shut off its beacon to avoid capture, etc.

We also know there aren't enough escape pods for everyone aboard ship -- see the conundrum after O'Cleary surrendered Crandall's forces at Spindle. Only those within 90 seconds' travel time to the hull are expected to evacuate. Everyone deep inside, including the flag and command bridges, isn't expected to evacuate at all.

But if I was a sailor I'd much rather have my hand or leg crushed by an auto-closing hatch so the pod could launch in time than dying because the pod waited for me to get out of the way or press the button myself and therefore didn't get far enough to survive the plasma of the ship's failing fusion reactor.

And, while it doesn't alleviate the immediate suffering, most people in the Honorverse can have a lost limb regenerated (and even the ones that can't can get powered prostetics lightyears beyond what we can do today) so a crippling injury isn't permanent.

Gruesome, but we can say "half a crewmember is better than none."

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Ok, here's the thing. The human element is the thing. When your family gets the news of your death, even if not right then, at some point they're going to wonder if you suffered. We always want to know if our loved ones suffered. You don't want them to have suffered. And, of course, you don't want to suffer when you die either. The ideal death I suppose is to die in your sleep. A soldier may want to die saving someone else, but I think even then he'd rather it not be painful.

Some of the solutions we've chosen for the pod system are downright frightening if we consider the human element. Auto shutting mechanisms can close on small hands and legs if a child is involved, or even, as I stated upstream, a small, frail, injured crewmember. Several members of Honor's original crew were described as looking like little kids.

The only passenger ship, and so the only ship likely to be carrying kids, we've see was the liner Artimis. And I get the impression that she uses her shuttles (with their oversize grav-plate equipped boarding ramps) to evacuate rather than carrying military style lifepods. And the couple times we've seen freighter crews abandon ship they've used cargo shuttle; not military style lifepods (since those crews are small enough the whole crew could fit on a single shuttle that the ship already has to carry. So civilian evacuation methods presumably have far different trade-offs than military lifepods do. Whatever the military ones may do the civilian ones probably aren't crushing children's (or anybody else's) limbs.

I was looking ahead a few moves because shit happens. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume civilians can end up on a warship. After all, warships are known to escort convoys of civilian vessels. And, shit happens. Bucket fulls of it happen to convoys, obviously.

But if I was a sailor I'd much rather have my hand or leg crushed by an auto-closing hatch so the pod could launch in time than dying because the pod waited for me to get out of the way or press the button myself and therefore didn't get far enough to survive the plasma of the ship's failing fusion reactor.

I would much rather too, if the lion's share of my body was trapped inside the pod.

And, while it doesn't alleviate the immediate suffering, most people in the Honorverse can have a lost limb regenerated (and even the ones that can't can get powered prostetics lightyears beyond what we can do today) so a crippling injury isn't permanent.

Being shot out of a cannon in a skinsuit isn't a crippling injury, and no amount of regen is ever going to sew that Raggedy Ann back up again.

Many of you are old enough to remember the force you had to exert to close the automobile doors in the pre 80s? You had to put your entire back into it to close those doors. "Nope, ain't shut, try again. Nope. Nope. Still no. No."

What resulted were many injuries involving fingers, hands and arms of kids, and adult alike, slammed shut in those older car doors. I bet someone other than me witnessed or know of an incident or three, back then. Come on, ante up.

Well, you ever remember getting your clothing or seeing a woman getting her clothing caught in a car door and getting dragged along? What follows is a PG rated version of what may happen in the pod bay . . .

This is what you don't want to happen.

cthia wrote:Good point. I considered that too. But not only that, what of the unfortunate soul who manages to get himself there but has no arms to operate the hatch?

I don't think that's likely but someone with injuries that preclude operating a hatch is quite possible.

How about a different system? While they normally have hatches they are open during the evacuation, probably opened when the abandon ship order is given. The pod mounts a tiny tractor beam, in an evacuation it grabs anything in the hatchway and pulls it in. The hatch is closed as part of the pod launch--this bleeds some air but they designed for it.

That will surely help the armless. I still fear the getting dragged and shot out of a cannon aspect of it. Remember, since the same tried-and-true system may be employed on civilian ships, there will be children involved in the scenario.

It doesn't have the power of the big tractors, it's just enough to pull you in at a reasonable rate and then bring you to a halt inside. I see no reason it would pose any substantial hazard.

I also think the pods will have a possible timer control--if the abandon order is given due to a hopeless tactical situation the pods fire just in time to get clear of the incoming missile storm. In this case all pods fire at that time regardless of occupancy.

That goes right back to the possibility of being dragged. I cringe at an all inclusive one size fits all deployment mechanism. I think they should be slaved to individual local control. An auto launch for all, type system, can fail for all pods. That would be akin to some General in the White House far removed from the situation calling shots for soldiers in a war. You have got to be the one there to make the call.

I'm not saying a pod couldn't be fired manually, I'm saying that if they know the time of destruction tell the pods. A pod that is full should always be fired immediately for the maximum safety of it's occupants.

I also suspect the pods are built to fire when the ship breaks up around them--if whatever they're mounted to is destroyed nobody's getting on, might as well try to save whoever is already on board.

A computer simply shouldn't make certain calls. The pod bay needs a human to control the human element.

If the access no longer exists what call can there be other than launch?

Yes, auto-fired pods might occasionally leave someone behind, but sticking around could easily cost more lives. There's no reason to fire a pod you know is empty--but in a battle damage situation do you trust whatever detects whether it's empty?

I still wouldn't want to suffer being dragged and shot out of a cannon. Let ME make the decision.

If you're in the hatchway the tractor beam pulls you in anyway, you're safe. If you weren't you see the pod launch in front of you. You might be in for a wild ride but it's not going to kill you.

First, adding just a bit more broth to the stew.

Tlb, that should certainly interest you.

Loren, are you trying to make me pass out? I'm squeamish you know. And you're pouring salt into the wound. From all of our talk in the How To Abandon Ship thread, I get the feeling that pods are quite heavy. We know they are very robust to endure what they must. Relax even thinks they have to have huge compensators.

At any rate, a tractor beam that can physically move a pod weighing at least a ton?, will pull a body apart. Remember the episode of Star Trek which locked on to the fighter jet in the atmosphere? "Captain, twentieth century planes were not built to withstand a tractor beam." Well, bodies weren't either.

Anyway, even if an occupant is dragged into the pod bay by a tractor beam alive, he still has to get himself loose before being shot out of a cannon with enough velocity to clear the wedge and the incoming missile storm and resulting debris.

cthia wrote:Loren, are you trying to make me pass out? I'm squeamish you know. And you're pouring salt into the wound. From all of our talk in the How To Abandon Ship thread, I get the feeling that pods are quite heavy. We know they are very robust to endure what they must. Relax even thinks they have to have huge compensators.

At any rate, a tractor beam that can physically move a pod weighing at least a ton?, will pull a body apart. Remember the episode of Star Trek which locked on to the fighter jet in the atmosphere? "Captain, twentieth century planes were not built to withstand a tractor beam." Well, bodies weren't either.

Anyway, even if an occupant is dragged into the pod bay by a tractor beam alive, he still has to get himself loose before being shot out of a cannon with enough velocity to clear the wedge and the incoming missile storm and resulting debris.

I do not expect that a pod is as big as a cutter, therefore it does not have a wedge and so cannot have a compensator. Instead it has to make do with thrusters and gravity plates. I do not like the idea of tractor beams trying to move people around.

On a naval ship, I expect them to be designed for use by naval personnel; who would receive some training in their use and maintenance. A civilian passenger ship might have enough shuttles to hold every one and be run by members of the crew.

The main thing that bothers me about the discussion is the idea of automatically launching a shuttle that is empty. If someone is able enough to get in the pod, then I expect them to be able enough to make it ready to eject; otherwise they will wait in the hope that another person will arrive.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But if I was a sailor I'd much rather have my hand or leg crushed by an auto-closing hatch so the pod could launch in time than dying because the pod waited for me to get out of the way or press the button myself and therefore didn't get far enough to survive the plasma of the ship's failing fusion reactor.

I would much rather too, if the lion's share of my body was trapped inside the pod.

My working assuming is that if the pod do have an force close capability on the hatch it would only come into play when they've been told "launch by time <x> to survive." and the hatch is still open at the last possible instant before <x>. So at the last possible instant, where they have to launch to survive.

So if the bad choices at that instant are are:
a) the other crew in the pod manage to escape and survive with just my severed arm for company, or
b) the pod waits for me to clear the hatch and then fails to get far enough before the reactor blow and we all die in a cloud of plasma...
Well both options suck, but I hope they live to toast me at nice wake after burying my arm.

(And hopefully if a warship did pick up civilians from a damaged ship, and then was forced into combat before being able to transfer them off, I'd hope that they'd be sent directly to lifepods the moment the ship went to general quarters or battle stations. That gets them out of the way, gives them their best chance to survive, and avoids any chance of them getting in the crews way during combat, damage control, or possible evacuation. And if they're already strapped into the pods before combat then they're not at any risk of getting crushed in hatches even if they can auto-close)

MaxxQ wrote:There are several pods per tube, each pod holds five people. A pod lines up with a hatch, people get in, and the pod is ejected. The next pod moves into place, lather rinse, repeat.

Mission of Honor claims enough pods to evacuate 5,000 people. One pod at a time per 5 people and you'd be rinsing, lathering and repeating 1,000 times. It'd take 100 pod stations to cut it down to 10 times. Still seems like a slow process. And do remember, these are injured people who by circumstance aren't exactly speedy.

How much does a lifepod weigh? Approximately? Anybody?


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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Gruesome, but we can say "half a crewmember is better than none."

It depends on which half. The better half?

Well, being shot out of a cannon at "escape velocity" certainly gives a new meaning to Flying Dutchman.

Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's...Halfaman?

'Ouch!'

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
We also know there aren't enough escape pods for everyone aboard ship -- see the conundrum after O'Cleary surrendered Crandall's forces at Spindle. Only those within 90 seconds' travel time to the hull are expected to evacuate. Everyone deep inside, including the flag and command bridges, isn't expected to evacuate at all.

Actually, we've been told specifically that ther are not enough life pods for aal the crew - and the larger the ship, the fewer the crew has a pod.

The problems are multiple -
1) pods are chinks in the armor - the more heavily you armor the ship, the fewer holes you want in it, and a pod launch tube is a hole. so most pods are placed in places where you do not armor, or armor lightly.
2) pods are at the skin - or just below it, and in larger ships, the bulk of the crew... isn't.
3)That's why big ships have multiple boat bays - Pinnances, cutters and shuttles have weeks of life support and can carry many more people than a lifecraft. Also, it's just as easy (or easier) for people in the interior of a warship to get to a boatbay.
4) People are not going to make it. This is a warship, it's not going to turn turtle at the first salvo, it's going to fight until it can't continue... and at that point there will be fewer crew... so why plan to evac all the crew in life pods?

This is actually discussed when Mike has to evacuate from her Agamemnon at Solon.