Greece

HB of CJ wrote:At the start of all this Greece business, whould it have been better just to let the stupid banks who gave out the bad loans and are now unable to call them ... just go belly up and fail on their own non merit? There would have been no government bail outs at all? Would that have been better? HB

A BIG FAT YEESSS to that question.

Tenshinai wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:At the start of all this Greece business, whould it have been better just to let the stupid banks who gave out the bad loans and are now unable to call them ... just go belly up and fail on their own non merit? There would have been no government bail outs at all? Would that have been better? HB

A BIG FAT YEESSS to that question.

This is one of the vanishingly rare occasions where I agree with Tenshinai.

Unfortunately for the first world, this kick the can down the road philosophy of politicians isn't limited to Greece. For example, the USA and almost every other country with an equivalent is underfunding their version of social security. Two totally different problems but the same mindset is causing both as well as many others.

Nothing to do with Greece, but a point of view that things may be all related. The USA government is underfunding lots of stuff. Yep ... just kicking the can down the road until after the next election cycle.

State governments here in the USA are also doing this. Specifically down in the State Of California, the massive CPERS (California State Employee Retirement System) is horribly and criminally under funded.

This comes home to roost because I receive a pension from CPERS from my prior Fire Department career. They have already slightly reduced my pension three times.. It was a contract agreement. Not good. HB

HB of CJ wrote:Nothing to do with Greece, but a point of view that things may be all related. The USA government is underfunding lots of stuff. Yep ... just kicking the can down the road until after the next election cycle.

State governments here in the USA are also doing this. Specifically down in the State Of California, the massive CPERS (California State Employee Retirement System) is horribly and criminally under funded.

This comes home to roost because I receive a pension from CPERS from my prior Fire Department career. They have already slightly reduced my pension three times.. It was a contract agreement. Not good. HB

Politicians always believe they can kick that can just one more time, and they will be 'shocked - shocked!' when the day comes that they are wrong. And we'll pay for it, not them.
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If you tried to run a business the way they run the government, you would be in jail or the poor-house within six months.

HB of CJ wrote:Nothing to do with Greece, but a point of view that things may be all related. The USA government is underfunding lots of stuff. Yep ... just kicking the can down the road until after the next election cycle.

State governments here in the USA are also doing this. Specifically down in the State Of California, the massive CPERS (California State Employee Retirement System) is horribly and criminally under funded.

This comes home to roost because I receive a pension from CPERS from my prior Fire Department career. They have already slightly reduced my pension three times.. It was a contract agreement. Not good. HB

I'm probably going to get some dislikes, but it's also possible that programs like the CPERS was criminally -over- applied or made promises that were impossible to keep. Which seems to be the case for a lot of social programs. They make promises that tend to,m years down the road, become harder and harder to pay for. And the first answer most people turn to is 'get more funding!' At what point do you say enough? How much funding should those programs get?

Exactly corect. I saw this happen first hand with my own eyes and ears back in about 2001. A City Council ram rodded a very expensive retirement pension through and it became law. Extremely non doable long term.

The elected City Council Persons who did the foul deed are long gone. Zero accountability, both criminally and civil. They are off the hook. Until future personnal accountability for bad decisions becomes law ...

... this sort of bad business will just continue. The Bank people who loaned Greece all that money got big bonuses and are now mostly retired. No accountability. Then European governments, (read that tax dollars) ...

Bailed out the banks. I do not understand any of this. The bankers/politicians who goofed up should be held accountable. Like life in prison acccountable. Until this happens, the can gets kicked down the road.

HB of CJ wrote:I do not understand any of this. The bankers/politicians who goofed up should be held accountable. Like life in prison acccountable. Until this happens, the can gets kicked down the road.

This sentiment is understandable, unfortunately you can't have that in a democracy. At the very basis of a free democracy lies that representatives deciding by majority shall not be prosecuted unless they obviously break the constitution. And this is a good thing because the majority of representatives actually defines the will of the represented. And while a people or constituents might regret decisions, they can't simply decide to prosecute themselves. In addition, such nonsense would open of the doors for all kinds of political prosecution. So, you can't get rid of that potentially fatal gap.
And thus the scene is set of all the kinds of moral hazards that are now pitfalls in solving Greece.
As it happens: I look forward to the US solving Puerto Rico. I wonder if Lew will forgive them part of their debt - as he suggested to Eurozone countries on Greece.

I respectfully disagree. Everything you just said has great merit ... if it is flipped 100% over. Until we get accountability from past foul deeds from bad politicians making known bad decisions, nothing will improve. This is happening in Greece today.

We need to consider taking the most quilty 100 or so per year, tar and feathering them, running them out of town on a rail and dunking them in the very cold river. WE MUST HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY. After leaving office, justice is served.

Just me here but I believe this is the fatal flaw of our USA Constitutional Republic. There is no teeth in the thing. No specific language defining high treason and the repercussions for such. Our founding fathers did not consider such.

They may just have assumed that every single statemans and patroit who ran for public office was perfect in every way. A fatal blind side. Nowadays once elected, some politicians consider such a license to steal, rape and pillage with imunity.

Respectfully. My opinions only.

HB of CJ wrote:I respectfully disagree. Everything you just said has great merit ... if it is flipped 100% over. Until we get accountability from past foul deeds from bad politicians making known bad decisions, nothing will improve. This is happening in Greece today.

We need to consider taking the most quilty 100 or so per year, tar and feathering them, running them out of town on a rail and dunking them in the very cold river. WE MUST HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY. After leaving office, justice is served.

Just me here but I believe this is the fatal flaw of our USA Constitutional Republic. There is no teeth in the thing. No specific language defining high treason and the repercussions for such. Our founding fathers did not consider such.

They may just have assumed that every single statemans and patroit who ran for public office was perfect in every way. A fatal blind side. Nowadays once elected, some politicians consider such a license to steal, rape and pillage with imunity.

Respectfully. My opinions only.

And who decides who is accountable for something?
And who decides which "somethings" are bad and people -should- be held accountable?

How many bad decisions are made because those who make decisions are fed poor advice or insufficient information?
How often are decisions implemented less than well because those not making the decisions wants to put their own spin or interpretation on the decision?

And so on and so on...