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War of the Fallen Spoiler

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War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by EdThomas   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:14 pm

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The WotF is going to be a common subject now, I think. :D
In my mind the WotF has the followiing characteristics:
1.The war started 60 years after the Awakening, following the destruction of Shan-Wei and Alexandria Enclave.

2. The war was fought by members of the command crew. My guess is that the folks doing the actual terraforming (The Grunts) would have sided with Shan-wei with the folks involved with waking up the adamsandeves (The REMFs) would have sided with Bedard/Langhorne.

Question 1. Weaponry is said in the recorded histories (written by the winners) to have been medieval/low tech with the boys and girls killing each other with swords and such. Why would members of the Terran Federation Space Navy choose to fight with swords. Think about it. You drive a machine that carves out canals and you go into battle with a spear and a sword!

Question 2. What roles, if any, did adamsandeves play? They were told by Langhorne's priests about the war with Shan-Wei. Its mentioned in their Testimonies and other journals.

OAR doesn't tell us much about the war.

Your thoughts...
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by Joat42   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:38 pm

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EdThomas wrote:The WotF is going to be a common subject now, I think. :D
In my mind the WotF has the followiing characteristics:
1.The war started 60 years after the Awakening, following the destruction of Shan-Wei and Alexandria Enclave.

2. The war was fought by members of the command crew. My guess is that the folks doing the actual terraforming (The Grunts) would have sided with Shan-wei with the folks involved with waking up the adamsandeves (The REMFs) would have sided with Bedard/Langhorne.

Question 1. Weaponry is said in the recorded histories (written by the winners) to have been medieval/low tech with the boys and girls killing each other with swords and such. Why would members of the Terran Federation Space Navy choose to fight with swords. Think about it. You drive a machine that carves out canals and you go into battle with a spear and a sword!

Question 2. What roles, if any, did adams and eves play? They were told by Langhorne's priests about the war with Shan-Wei. Its mentioned in their Testimonies and other journals.

OAR doesn't tell us much about the war.

Your thoughts...


My answers:
  1. Because killing the innocent colonists wholesale using high-tech weapons is a good idea? Because if you start using high-tech weapons, what's stopping the other side to use more powerful high-tech weapons? Escalation isn't a good idea, but there is other issues also by using high-tech weapons which could be hard to explain to the "yokels".
  2. Colonists where probably drafted into the war of the fallen. Not all colonists where from enclaves that embraced Langhornes vision so we probably would have armies from both sides clashing. And we also now that the testimonies where censured and altered to fit the winning side version of things.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:50 pm

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I got the impression that there were two elements to the War.

One was fighting between "mortal" supporters of the "Angel" factions.

The other was fighting between the "Angels" themselves.

Obviously the "mortals" would be using low-tech weapons against other "mortals" while the "Angels" would be using high-tech weapons against other "Angels".

From what David Weber has said, this was a somewhat limited war.

That is the Angels limited the type of high-tech weapons used because none of the Angels wanted great damage done to Safehold and the "non-combatants".

Likely the greatest use of high-tech weapons involved fighting to control the OBS.

Obviously, if one side controlled it, then that side would have the advantage.

Fighting to control the early version of the OBS likely occurred inside the last starship and within orbital space around Safehold.


EdThomas wrote:The WotF is going to be a common subject now, I think. :D
In my mind the WotF has the followiing characteristics:
1.The war started 60 years after the Awakening, following the destruction of Shan-Wei and Alexandria Enclave.

2. The war was fought by members of the command crew. My guess is that the folks doing the actual terraforming (The Grunts) would have sided with Shan-wei with the folks involved with waking up the adamsandeves (The REMFs) would have sided with Bedard/Langhorne.

Question 1. Weaponry is said in the recorded histories (written by the winners) to have been medieval/low tech with the boys and girls killing each other with swords and such. Why would members of the Terran Federation Space Navy choose to fight with swords. Think about it. You drive a machine that carves out canals and you go into battle with a spear and a sword!

Question 2. What roles, if any, did adamsandeves play? They were told by Langhorne's priests about the war with Shan-Wei. Its mentioned in their Testimonies and other journals.

OAR doesn't tell us much about the war.

Your thoughts...
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by Boronian   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:20 pm

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Keeping a society low-tech and giving high-tech weapons to mortals contradict each other IMO. That could produce severe problems for the big plan which both sides want to follow only in a very different way.
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by Henry Brown   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:31 pm

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One thing I would like to point out. The following comes from HFQ Snippet 5
***SNIP***
"When the Sisters proved . . . intransigent, the abbey — and everyone in it — was destroyed in the middle of the night in a ‘blast of holy fury,’ the last Rakurai of the War Against the Fallen. A blast which, strangely, was never recorded in any of Mother Church’s official records.”
***SNIP***

To me, the term "last Rakuri of the War Against the Fallen" implies that the Rakuri was used multiple times, not just in the initial destruction of the Enclave of Alexandria. So maybe the underlings such as Seijin Kohdy were restricted to fairly low level tech such as battlesteel swords (which could be explained as "magic swords"). But on the greater level, the "Archangels" (i.e. members of the command crew) fought the war on a higher tech level.
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:23 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:One thing I would like to point out. The following comes from HFQ Snippet 5
***SNIP***
"When the Sisters proved . . . intransigent, the abbey — and everyone in it — was destroyed in the middle of the night in a ‘blast of holy fury,’ the last Rakurai of the War Against the Fallen. A blast which, strangely, was never recorded in any of Mother Church’s official records.”
***SNIP***

To me, the term "last Rakuri of the War Against the Fallen" implies that the Rakuri was used multiple times, not just in the initial destruction of the Enclave of Alexandria. So maybe the underlings such as Seijin Kohdy were restricted to fairly low level tech such as battlesteel swords (which could be explained as "magic swords"). But on the greater level, the "Archangels" (i.e. members of the command crew) fought the war on a higher tech level.


It occurs to me that the seijins weren't entirely low tech. One of the ways Nynian identifies Merlin as a seijin was his ability to go great distances very quickly which suggests something like Merlin's skimmer.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by CSB   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:52 am

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Right now, it seems like the timeline of the "War Against the Fallen" is inconsistent to the point of incoherence. We've been told numerous things at various points that cannot be completely squared with each other. All we know now is that it was fought by [some group of people] against [one or more other groups of people], lasted [some period of time] starting with the Alexandria strike (an uncontroverted fact!) and ending with [a different event]. At least one [maybe] member of the command staff survived the War, and therefore might be said to have "won"; the rest did not.

Doubtless some of the inconsistent information was wrong, due to the limitations of various character perspectives, but without a great deal more information from a reliable source, I'm not sure how useful further speculation is at this point.
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:03 am

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Hi CSB,

Welcome to the confusion club. ;)

I think things aren't quite as muddled as you point out, yet much remains to be explained.

Hopefully some of the snippets soon to be revealed will help or RFC will have mercy upon us.

L


CSB wrote:Right now, it seems like the timeline of the "War Against the Fallen" is inconsistent to the point of incoherence. We've been told numerous things at various points that cannot be completely squared with each other. All we know now is that it was fought by [some group of people] against [one or more other groups of people], lasted [some period of time] starting with the Alexandria strike (an uncontroverted fact!) and ending with [a different event]. At least one [maybe] member of the command staff survived the War, and therefore might be said to have "won"; the rest did not.

Doubtless some of the inconsistent information was wrong, due to the limitations of various character perspectives, but without a great deal more information from a reliable source, I'm not sure how useful further speculation is at this point.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:45 am

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CSB wrote:Right now, it seems like the timeline of the "War Against the Fallen" is inconsistent to the point of incoherence. We've been told numerous things at various points that cannot be completely squared with each other. All we know now is that it was fought by [some group of people] against [one or more other groups of people], lasted [some period of time] starting with the Alexandria strike (an uncontroverted fact!) and ending with [a different event]. At least one [maybe] member of the command staff survived the War, and therefore might be said to have "won"; the rest did not.

Doubtless some of the inconsistent information was wrong, due to the limitations of various character perspectives, but without a great deal more information from a reliable source, I'm not sure how useful further speculation is at this point.


not so much incoherent as opaque... however that early morning mist is clearing!
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Re: War of the Fallen Spoiler
Post by USMA74   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:30 am

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CSB wrote:Right now, it seems like the timeline of the "War Against the Fallen" is inconsistent to the point of incoherence. We've been told numerous things at various points that cannot be completely squared with each other. All we know now is that it was fought by [some group of people] against [one or more other groups of people], lasted [some period of time] starting with the Alexandria strike (an uncontroverted fact!) and ending with [a different event]. At least one [maybe] member of the command staff survived the War, and therefore might be said to have "won"; the rest did not.

Doubtless some of the inconsistent information was wrong, due to the limitations of various character perspectives, but without a great deal more information from a reliable source, I'm not sure how useful further speculation is at this point.


In this broad collective group, a lack of specific information from MWW/RFC is just more grist for the speculation mill of hopeless Safehold/Honorverse junkies like myself. :lol:
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