Solly Fleet Advancements

Weird Harold wrote:The League is going to leap on anything that smells remotely like a "Silver Bullet" or "Golden BB" and I think there are people around who will take advantage of that desire.

Oh, certainly. But automatically assuming that the SLN will fall for it is questionable.

Apart from every in-universe reason why there have to be at least some competent people in the SLN, having that faction spend its time and money on schemes that we can see are somewhat stupid is just bad storytelling.

The E wrote:Oh, certainly. But automatically assuming that the SLN will fall for it is questionable.

I don't "automatically assume" the SLN would "fall for it" I do assume that the MAlign would encourage acceptance (aka bribe or blackmail) if they don't have an outright agent in the procurement and design bureau.

The E wrote:Apart from every in-universe reason why there have to be at least some competent people in the SLN, having that faction spend its time and money on schemes that we can see are somewhat stupid is just bad storytelling.

Watching the villainous conspiracy mislead the innocent dupes while yelling at the screen/book "No! Don't Do it! It's a trap!" is half the fun of reading about villainous conspiracies.

idk what’s been suggested (13pg already) but something I’ve used successfully elsewhere is an “escort frigate”. I know there’s a general scorn of the “frigate” but you don’t design them the same as destroyers. Give them 1 maybe 2 offensive missiles & 1 or 2 lasers (1 missile on the bow & 1 small laser each side for anti-piracy offense/anti DD/LAC defense) the rest of the weapons are replaced with AMS (PD clusters & counter missiles). Use them basically like Honor uses her LACs, a huge screen of EFs racing ahead of the fleet providing a cloud of advanced PD against missile salvos. Unlike LACs they are hyper capable, don’t need a LACCV to stay with the fleet, don’t need to be “deployed” once in system. & if a fleet is destroyed the survivors can leave the system on their own so you don’t just loose them as well. They’re fast enough to run from pursuit. And dirt cheap & quick (to build & design) the SL could start pumping them out by the thousands quick. Plus with their tractors they could tow cataphract pods well ahead of the fleet for quicker first salvos & use their shorter data links for some of those missiles. (as a quick stop-gap till better ships are available).

We do not talk about frigates because that horse has been long dead and buried by RFC. There is no job a frigate does that a destroyer or (more often than not) a LAC can do more efficiently and/or more cost effectively.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/289/1

Actually, I could see that. Even if the SLN does not do it, some of the rump units probably will after the breakup. At least until they figure out how to build the new LACs.

I only have one small note.

MAD-4A wrote:They’re fast enough to run from pursuit.

They will still be slower than RMN SDs. An SD with the new compensators can out pace a Dispatch Boat.

MAD-4A wrote:idk what’s been suggested (13pg already) but something I’ve used successfully elsewhere is an “escort frigate”. I know there’s a general scorn of the “frigate” but you don’t design them the same as destroyers. Give them 1 maybe 2 offensive missiles & 1 or 2 lasers (1 missile on the bow & 1 small laser each side for anti-piracy offense/anti DD/LAC defense) the rest of the weapons are replaced with AMS (PD clusters & counter missiles). Use them basically like Honor uses her LACs, a huge screen of EFs racing ahead of the fleet providing a cloud of advanced PD against missile salvos. Unlike LACs they are hyper capable, don’t need a LACCV to stay with the fleet, don’t need to be “deployed” once in system. & if a fleet is destroyed the survivors can leave the system on their own so you don’t just loose them as well. They’re fast enough to run from pursuit. And dirt cheap & quick (to build & design) the SL could start pumping them out by the thousands quick. Plus with their tractors they could tow cataphract pods well ahead of the fleet for quicker first salvos & use their shorter data links for some of those missiles. (as a quick stop-gap till better ships are available).

I was going to argue against this at first, based on previous infodumps from RFC. But you have a point. While Manticore has something better than this, the League does not. As a stand-in for Manticore-style LACs, this could serve as a short-term solution. Over-specialized ships is usually a bad idea, but this is an unusual and temporary situation. The downside is that they will be much more vulnerable than LACs. They will suffer losses far worse than even the first few outings of LACs in the First Havenite War. But enough of them might allow Solarian wallers to survive long enough to do some damage. It's a case where the League's sheer size can help offset the tech disparity.

SWM wrote:While Manticore has something better than this, the League does not. As a stand-in for Manticore-style LACs, this could serve as a short-term solution.

I think the main problem with the idea is bunkerage and magazine space. Frigates just aren't big enough for both to be adequate for offensive expeditions.

A squadron of frigates would have to be accompanied by a tanker and probably by a missile collier as well. I think it would be simpler to solve the problems of a LAC carrier for an AMS-LAC -- upgradeable as more capable LACs get developed. Use the space saved by excluding the hyper generator and sails for more missiles (CM or SK) or bunkerage.

Frigates as Anti-missile/anti-LAC support is possible, but it doesn't fit with the conservative mind-set of the SLN. They're more likely to favor up-gunned/up-armored/up-sized versions of existing types. (The "super BB" would be considered a down-sized SD/DN or an up-sized BC.)

I think that Frigates (which are said to be LACs with hyper drives on top) aren't likely to show up, even in a defensive role. But, the concept definitely has merit given the limitations of the SLN tech base; What I would find more likely would be an escort vessel of DD, CL or CA size.

Potato wrote:We do not talk about frigates because that horse has been long dead and buried by RFC. There is no job a frigate does that a destroyer or (more often than not) a LAC can do more efficiently and/or more cost effectively.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/289/1

That's certainly true when talking about the equipment of the RMN or the RHN but this thread concerns the Solarian League Navy which doesn't have anything resembling a modern LAC and which will take time to develop one.

In such a case you may well need smaller vessels like a Frigate to substitute for a LAC and free up heavier vessels for other duty.

As I've said before, you can't use "cannon gospel truths" about what makes sense for the RMN and attempt to apply that logic to the SLN because the two are operating under radically different realities.

The point here is that you are targeting such a ridiculously tiny edge case as to make it incredibly implausible. Either:

1) The SLN is so hidebound that it will ignore the need to build matching light combatant capability as the Alliance, in which case it will continue building its usual classes; or

2) The SLN recognizes the need to build matching capability, in which case LACs are back on the table.

A frigate is barely more than a LAC with a hyper generator piled on top. If you are positing that the SLN is capable of radically rethinking its ship design paradigm enough to even think about resurrecting a dead and buried ship type, then it must also be capable of recognizing that building a frigate without the hyper generator (i.e., a LAC) is at least equally desirable, especially given that it knows that the Alliance has also gone to building LACs. And since the SLN knows that it LACs are much cheaper than frigates, and frigates have zero advantages above and beyond hyper capability, I see no reason why they would not go go to LACs first.

The SLN is not going to look at the capability disparity and decide that it wants to build supremely cost inefficient platforms to carry out the missions they need those ships to do. As pointed out in that infodump, frigates have no justification regardless of the tech level, which is why they disappeared from the major navies in the first place.

If anything the SLN is not going to recognize the need for LACs until it is too late. Instead they are going to follow the same convergent design evolution as Erewhon/Maya and build better destroyers, not frigates, to get that defensive capability. The difference in construction time and crew would be minimal over the frigate, but would buy them so much more in capability.

Alizon wrote:That's certainly true when talking about the equipment of the RMN or the RHN but this thread concerns the Solarian League Navy which doesn't have anything resembling a modern LAC and which will take time to develop one.

In such a case you may well need smaller vessels like a Frigate to substitute for a LAC and free up heavier vessels for other duty.

As I've said before, you can't use "cannon gospel truths" about what makes sense for the RMN and attempt to apply that logic to the SLN because the two are operating under radically different realities.