Honorverse Euphemisms

Yes, it can be subjective, but a euphemism has to be a euphemism for something. How does "sex slave" euphemistically refer to a slave that was purchased for sexual purposes? As he said; it is as much a euphemism as "shuttle pilot" is a euphemism for someone who pilots shuttles. If you use "brown cat" to refer to a cat with brown fur, it is not a euphemism, if you refer to "yes that" as you say, then it is a euphemism.

Please, as I have asked before, give us your one or two sentence definition of euphemism. That way we can tell where the disconnect is.

cthia wrote:

petercharters wrote:In this case, of course, it's not a euphemism at all. It's a straight forward description.

I'm not quite feeling you on this, as all euphemisms are indeed descriptions. Albeit, euphemistic descriptions. Does straight forward necessarily make a difference...no.
Example: brown cat. Straightforward enough?
Yet, in my college dorm brown cat meant...yes that!...don't make me say it!

I don't think you understand how subjective euphemisms are. What is euphemistic to you may not be for me. For me, may not be for you. Radio and television personalities have been losing their jobs for years, even coaches because of a single word or phrase that they never expected would cause so much upheaval.

Imagine this. If we cannot first be sure about what is or isn't offensive, then how can we manufacture a-one-size-fits-all watered-down (euphemistic) alternative?

You simply must accept that euphemisms are subjective, before you can discuss it, intelligibly. Personally, I would hesitate before challenging anyone's claim of some word or phrase being an euphemism.

Someone could claim that 'ice' is an euphemism for 'God.' I may not understand it, but in his remote village, it indeed has become an euphemism for God. You must know your audience, and expect that some shots are going to miss the mark completely.

My niece argued that 'life' has become an euphemism for 'death' for some people. Why do you think they commit suicide? Living can become so distateful that the mere mention of the single word 'life' conjures up images of death!

It's all subjective. Subject a man that has fifteen wives and twenty-three uncontrollable miscreant kids all under the age of seven--terrible kids-- the wives are overworked, beeotchy, overbearing, mean, inconsiderate, abusive and he is a simple, reserved, frail specimen of a man who also catches it twice as bad at work, that has just discovered the IRS is going to hang him, to the word 'life' and for him it conjures up images of death.

Brings to mind the Church Lady on Laugh In and similar characters on other shows.

You encounter an individual, observe some activity or "profound" statement by said individual and remark "Isn't he SPECIAL"

That can be taken serveral ways but rather than that the person possesses some great amount of importance or intelligence, the typical meaning is actually that the person is of damaged or greatly impaired capacity.
Like the difference between "Talented and Gifted Progarm" and "Special Education"

Brigade XO wrote:Brings to mind the Church Lady on Laugh In and similar characters on other shows.

Nit: Church Lady was from Saturday Night Live, not Laugh-In.

Note: I find it very odd that I know this, even though I've only seen less than a handful of episodes of each, and none of those from SNL were from the time Dana Carvey was doing the Church Lady shtick.

MaxxQ wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Brings to mind the Church Lady on Laugh In and similar characters on other shows.

Nit: Church Lady was from Saturday Night Live, not Laugh-In.

Note: I find it very odd that I know this, even though I've only seen less than a handful of episodes of each, and none of those from SNL were from the time Dana Carvey was doing the Church Lady shtick.

Ok so what was the Church Lady name on The Carol Burnett Show? She was... dear gods help me, a dead ringer for my mother in law.

Northstar wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Nit: Church Lady was from Saturday Night Live, not Laugh-In.

Note: I find it very odd that I know this, even though I've only seen less than a handful of episodes of each, and none of those from SNL were from the time Dana Carvey was doing the Church Lady shtick.

Ok so what was the Church Lady name on The Carol Burnett Show? She was... dear gods help me, a dead ringer for my mother in law.

Not sure. I don't recall a "church lady" on the Carol Burnett show. The closest I can think of is Vicki Lawrence's character of Mama from the "The Family" series of sketches that was later spun off into its own series, "Mama's Family".

crewdude48 wrote:A euphemism for Battle Fleet would be Defence Force.

In fact, Beowulf Self Defense Force is a euphemism due to the fact that they can use those SDs of theirs for attacking.

Not really. An SDF is a military force for the express purpose of defending one's own territory and population. In principle, such a force is politically prevented from expeditionary operations but can otherwise be as powerful and capable as any other.

It's worth noting that Japan has an SDF, not an army/navy/air force. They have (I beleive) deployed overseas once since 1945, and that in non-combat operations.

Now, Biological Survey Corps - that is an euphemism.

crewdude48 wrote:
Yes, it can be subjective, but a euphemism has to be a euphemism for something. How does "sex slave" euphemistically refer to a slave that was purchased for sexual purposes? As he said; it is as much a euphemism as "shuttle pilot" is a euphemism for someone who pilots shuttles. If you use "brown cat" to refer to a cat with brown fur, it is not a euphemism, if you refer to "yes that" as you say, then it is a euphemism.

Please, as I have asked before, give us your one or two sentence definition of euphemism. That way we can tell where the disconnect is.

"whoa mule." Why are we still beating this horse. It's not a mule.

thump thump thump...hello hello...is this thing on...hello?
I think this microphone is broken.

I am telling you that when I read 'sex slave' I immediately think 'prostitute'. Period. So unless you think that I am lying to you, then 'sex slave' is a euphemism for 'prostitute'. Even if I am the only idiot on the planet where 'sex slave' conjures up 'prostitute' then that only renders 'sex slave' not a very good euphemism for 'prostitute'.

I didn't before, because I didn't feel I had to. But I decided to consult the internet, to see if I could find examples of 'sex slave' being considered a reference to 'prostitute.'

Lo and behold, what do I find, first search...

Sexual slavery is slavery for the purpose of sexual exploitation. Sexual slavery may involve single-owner sexual slavery; ritual slavery, sometimes associated with certain religious practices, such as trokosi in Ghana, Togo and Benin; slavery for primarily non-sexual purposes but where non-consensual sexual activity is common; or forced prostitution. Concubines were a traditional form of sexual slavery in many cultures, in which women spent their lives in sexual servitude. In some cultures, concubines and their children had distinct rights and legitimate social position. -wiki

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Main article: Forced prostitution
Most, if not all, forms of forced prostitution may be viewed as a kind of sexual slavery.[27] The terms "forced prostitution" or "enforced prostitution" appear in international and humanitarian conventions but have been insufficiently understood and inconsistently applied. "Forced prostitution" generally refers to conditions of control over a person who is coerced by another to engage in sexual activity.[28]

The issue of consent in prostitution is hotly debated. Opinion in places such as Europe has been divided over the question of whether prostitution should be considered as a free choice or as inherently exploitative of women.[29] The law in Sweden, Norway and Iceland – where it is illegal to pay for sex, but not to sell sexual services – is based on the notion that all forms of prostitution are inherently exploitative, opposing the notion that prostitution can be voluntary.[30] In contrast, prostitution is a recognized profession in countries such as the Netherlands and Germany. -wiki

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A few in the thread have argued that a sex slave should not be considered a prostitute because of the available lack of 'choice' and because of the negative connotation that prostitute carries. However I am not challenging the how or why a sex slave is a sex slave is a prostitute. It no more matters if she was forced into prostitution at gunpoint, at knifepoint, if she was born into, if she awoken one morning and found herself a prostitute, if her father ordered it, if her country ordered it, or if she was brainwashed. What an euphemism is concerned with is the 'what' not the 'why' and 'how.'

A prostitute gets paid for sexual services rendered. a sex slave in the Honorverse does too. And quite well. It's a booming business in the Honorverse, sometimes entire fleets are accepted as payment for services rendered. Now that may be the most expensive lay I've ever heard of but a prostituted lay it is! Maybe the sex slave does not actually receive the money, but someone does.

Crewdude, conduct an honest experiment of your own. An honest one! Write down on a large cue card in big letters 'sex slave'. Ask your neutral participants, friends, associates, acquaintances to give you the first thing that pops into their mind. Give us the results. I am betting prostitute will be given 50%+

Why do we say funny as hell, is hell funny? not to Christians.
It's because to some people being sent to suffer forever is hillarious.

Two guys walk in a bar. They had been arguing over watching this old movie again.
Exasperated, having reached his limit, one guy yells at the other, I hate Men In Black.
They barely make it out alive.
Why?

It's all about hidden meanings.

-poopsterbate (all about hidden meanings) doesn't even have to be a word. it only has to subtly get your meaning across to the intended without offending or fouling the unintended.
-poopsterbate, masturbating while sitting on the toilet.

It doesn't have to be a real word, or grammatically correct, because it isn't the word that's important but what its subtly trying to convey. And if it was effective for your intended audience of one sitting in a stadium of an audience of 1000 then the euphemism was successful.

Crewdude48 wrote:

it can be subjective, but a euphemism has to be a euphemism for something. How does "sex slave" euphemistically refer to a slave that was purchased for sexual purposes?

Because it euphemistically refers to the 'person' that was purchased for sexual purposes as a prostitute is purchased for sexual purposes. And at three-thousand dollars a night for some high class prostitutes, they had better be willing sex slaves as well! Speaking only when spoken to, at that rate!

I never gave a definition for euphemism because you gave one. Your definition is fine. All of my arguments stand up to the definition you gave.


Euphemism; an innocuous word used in place of one found offensive

but on that note you should also consider...

eu·phe·mism
ˈyo͞ofəˌmizəm/Submit
noun
1.
a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.

***
Because of Monica Lewinsky, intern threatens to become a euphemism for prostitute.

When Monica Lewinsky was asked by her nearest and dearest remaining friend of why she did what she did, Monica finally admitted sheepishly.

"Oh come on girl you were my roommate for gosh sakes. You know I wasn't very smart."

"But you were on the Dean's list Monica!"

"Well yea, every morning every evening every night and several times during the day. And I graduated with honors but failed to learn a damn thing. So when I got hired on as an intern for the President, I didn't even know what an intern was."

"What?! Well...well why didn't you ask the President?"

"I did! He said it described the way I got paid."

"In turn for services rendered." -a joke by cthia

I'm sorry if you feel like this is beating a dead horse, but I can't disagree with you more. By what you have said below "labor slave" is a euphemism for employee. Prostitue does not always refer to somebody who was forced into it. Even in the current world the group properly labled "Sex slave" is a sub group of "sex workers," not the entire group. Not even a majority. Even the article you quoted stated very spicificly that sex slavery was also called forced prostitution. In fact, I would go so far as to say you have it exactly back words. Forced prostitution is a euphemism for sex slavery.

How about you try an experiment. Go to any of the areas in the US where prostitution is legal, and ask the sex workers there if sex slave referred to them. See how many you can ask before the bouncer throws you out.

I don't think you are lying about what you think, but the fact that you can't consider that some women want to be prostitues, are willing to do it voluntarily, and even enjoy their work, kind of makes me worry. Not just about you, but about society in general.

As for your your two jokes,
1. I have no idea why they had trouble getting out of the bar. I enjoyed the movie but I don't thin I need to beat up somebody who doesn't. I guess I just don't get it.
2. It is just a (rather untrue) comment on Lewinsky's intelligence. If anything, intern is a euphemism for unpaid or underpaid chore monkey.

cthia wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:
Yes, it can be subjective, but a euphemism has to be a euphemism for something. How does "sex slave" euphemistically refer to a slave that was purchased for sexual purposes? As he said; it is as much a euphemism as "shuttle pilot" is a euphemism for someone who pilots shuttles. If you use "brown cat" to refer to a cat with brown fur, it is not a euphemism, if you refer to "yes that" as you say, then it is a euphemism.

Please, as I have asked before, give us your one or two sentence definition of euphemism. That way we can tell where the disconnect is.

"whoa mule." Why are we still beating this horse. It's not a mule.

thump thump thump...hello hello...is this thing on...hello?
I think this microphone is broken.

I am telling you that when I read 'sex slave' I immediately think 'prostitute'. Period. So unless you think that I am lying to you, then 'sex slave' is a euphemism for 'prostitute'. Even if I am the only idiot on the planet where 'sex slave' conjures up 'prostitute' then that only renders 'sex slave' not a very good euphemism for 'prostitute'.

I didn't before, because I didn't feel I had to. But I decided to consult the internet, to see if I could find examples of 'sex slave' being considered a reference to 'prostitute.'

Lo and behold, what do I find, first search...

Sexual slavery is slavery for the purpose of sexual exploitation. Sexual slavery may involve single-owner sexual slavery; ritual slavery, sometimes associated with certain religious practices, such as trokosi in Ghana, Togo and Benin; slavery for primarily non-sexual purposes but where non-consensual sexual activity is common; or forced prostitution. Concubines were a traditional form of sexual slavery in many cultures, in which women spent their lives in sexual servitude. In some cultures, concubines and their children had distinct rights and legitimate social position. -wiki

****** *
Main article: Forced prostitution
Most, if not all, forms of forced prostitution may be viewed as a kind of sexual slavery.[27] The terms "forced prostitution" or "enforced prostitution" appear in international and humanitarian conventions but have been insufficiently understood and inconsistently applied. "Forced prostitution" generally refers to conditions of control over a person who is coerced by another to engage in sexual activity.[28]

The issue of consent in prostitution is hotly debated. Opinion in places such as Europe has been divided over the question of whether prostitution should be considered as a free choice or as inherently exploitative of women.[29] The law in Sweden, Norway and Iceland – where it is illegal to pay for sex, but not to sell sexual services – is based on the notion that all forms of prostitution are inherently exploitative, opposing the notion that prostitution can be voluntary.[30] In contrast, prostitution is a recognized profession in countries such as the Netherlands and Germany. -wiki

****** *
A few in the thread have argued that a sex slave should not be considered a prostitute because of the available lack of 'choice' and because of the negative connotation that prostitute carries. However I am not challenging the how or why a sex slave is a sex slave is a prostitute. It no more matters if she was forced into prostitution at gunpoint, at knifepoint, if she was born into, if she awoken one morning and found herself a prostitute, if her father ordered it, if her country ordered it, or if she was brainwashed. What an euphemism is concerned with is the 'what' not the 'why' and 'how.'

A prostitute gets paid for sexual services rendered. a sex slave in the Honorverse does too. And quite well. It's a booming business in the Honorverse, entire fleets are paid for services rendered. Now that may be the most expensive lay I've ever heard of but a prostituted lay it is! Maybe the sex slave does not actually receive the money, but someone does.

Crewdude, conduct an honest experiment of your own. An honest one! Write down on a large cue card in big letters 'sex slave'. Ask your neutral participants, friends, associates, acquaintances to give you the first thing that pops into their mind. Give us the results. I am betting prostitute will be given 50%+

Why do we say funny as hell, is hell funny? not to Christians.
It's because to some people being sent to suffer forever is hillarious.

Two guys walk in a bar. They had been arguing over watching this old movie again.
Exasperated, having reached his limit, one guy yells at the other, I hate Men In Black.
They barely make it out alive.
Why?

It's all about hidden meanings.

-poopsterbate (all about hidden meanings) doesn't even have to be a word. it only has to subtly get your meaning across to the intended without offending or fouling the unintended.
-poopsterbate, masturbating while sitting on the toilet.

It doesn't have to be a real word, or grammatically correct, because it isn't the word that's important but what its subtly trying to convey. And if it was effective for your intended audience of one sitting in a stadium of an audience of 1000 then the euphemism was successful.

Crewdude48 wrote:

it can be subjective, but a euphemism has to be a euphemism for something. How does "sex slave" euphemistically refer to a slave that was purchased for sexual purposes?

Because it euphemistically refers to the 'person' that was purchased for sexual purposes as a prostitute is purchased for sexual purposes. And at three-thousand dollars a night for some high class prostitutes, they had better be willing sex slaves as well! Speaking only when spoken to, at that rate!

I never gave a definition for euphemism because you gave one. Your definition is fine. All of my arguments stand up to the definition you gave.


Euphemism; an innocuous word used in place of one found offensive

but on that note you should also consider...

eu·phe·mism
ˈyo͞ofəˌmizəm/Submit
noun
1.
a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.

***
Because of Monica Lewinsky, intern threatens to become a euphemism for prostitute.

When Monica Lewinsky was asked by her nearest and dearest remaining friend of why she did what she did, Monica finally admitted sheepishly.

"Oh come on girl you were my roommate for gosh sakes. You know I wasn't very smart."

"But you were on the Dean's list Monica!"

"Well yea, every morning every evening every night and several times during the day. And I graduated with honors but failed to learn a damn thing. So when I got hired on as an intern for the President, I didn't even know what an intern was."

"What?! Well...well why didn't you ask the President?"

"I did! He said it described the way I got paid."

"In turn for services rendered." -a joke

Can we call it a draw? I don't wish to beat this poor horse anymore. If it were a mule, it'd be different.

One note: I respect your opinion. And even if you were to eventually say that you understand how sex slave can refer to prostitute will not make me absolutely correct. There will be those that do not make that connection...like the countries that you mentioned by inference. Subjectivity.

cthia, I am glad that in the Honorverse, people have gotten past your view. A woman voluntarily selling sex is just as honorable as selling a pedicure or selling paper filing. A prostitute is not a sex slave. That is not subjective.