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Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth

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Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by WiseMan999   » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:49 pm

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Hey, this is my first post on these forums, I'd just like to say that i absolutely love DW's books and am eagerly awaiting the next one, whichever series it may be. The War God is one of my favourites though, and this has been playing on my mind, so i though i'd just throw it out there.

What's on Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth? I mean specifically what is on there, and what is the relationship between whatever inhabitants there may be and the Dark Gods? I ask because, looking at the map, it seems like a possible area of expansion for the new hradani state being formed by Bahnak, although i know any future books would be more focused on other areas rather than there. However the hradani to me seem to me ideally suited to expanding into the area judging by the hints we've already had that something(s) strong and possibly evil lives there. If ghouls in the sense we think of them live on Ghoul Moor or trolls on Troll Garth, surely the hradani are the best people for the job of eradicating them, especially now their Rage is under their own control.

The ghouls would be trickier, and a lot depends on the exact nature of the inhabitants. Like i said, this is just a thought, but one that i feel like i have to get off my chest.

Eagerly awaiting replies.

Thank You.
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by Rook   » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:41 pm

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The only information I could find on Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor is quoted below from Oath of Swords:

'"Across Troll Garth and the Ghoul Moor?" Harnak swallowed again, harder, and his voice was faint. Trolls were far from intelligent and tended to lair up in the winter, but they were also nine feet of perpetually hungry killing machine. If one of them scented fresh meat in winter, an entire pack would materialize out of the very ground, and as for the Ghoul Moor—!'


That's it. I could not find any details on the Ghouls themselves other than they come up against Sothoii Lands as well, and the Sothoii occasionally fight the ghouls. Duke Tellian's new heir (I forget his name) had somewhat distinguished himself fighting them just before the events in Wind Rider's Oath.

TBH, I would not be surprised if the next book has a lot to do with those areas.

Consider this: The Purple Lords have a monopoly on all trade on the River Spear because they control the access to the mouth of the river. However, that monopoly is jeopardized if Banahk's new kingdom in the north tames Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor. Doing that would give the Hradani control of the source of the Spear River, adding a second access point to the Spear and breaking the Purple Lord's monopoly.

I can see the Purple Lords trying to do everything they can to frustrate Hradani attempts to tame Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor. Even using Dark Gods, which they have a close relationship with.

Thoughts?

WiseMan999 wrote:Hey, this is my first post on these forums, I'd just like to say that i absolutely love DW's books and am eagerly awaiting the next one, whichever series it may be. The War God is one of my favourites though, and this has been playing on my mind, so i though i'd just throw it out there.

What's on Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth? I mean specifically what is on there, and what is the relationship between whatever inhabitants there may be and the Dark Gods? I ask because, looking at the map, it seems like a possible area of expansion for the new hradani state being formed by Bahnak, although i know any future books would be more focused on other areas rather than there. However the hradani to me seem to me ideally suited to expanding into the area judging by the hints we've already had that something(s) strong and possibly evil lives there. If ghouls in the sense we think of them live on Ghoul Moor or trolls on Troll Garth, surely the hradani are the best people for the job of eradicating them, especially now their Rage is under their own control.

The ghouls would be trickier, and a lot depends on the exact nature of the inhabitants. Like i said, this is just a thought, but one that i feel like i have to get off my chest.

Eagerly awaiting replies.

Thank You.
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by WiseMan999   » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 pm

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Hmm, you raise a good point. I found this in Oath of Swords.
"The roads in Esgan might be as good as any in Hurgrum, but most merchants preferred to ship by ¬water wherever possible. Unfortunately, the best river route of all—the mighty Spear River and its tributary, the Hangnysti, whose navigable waters ran clear from the Sothoii Wind Plain to the Purple Lords’ Bortalik Bay—was out of the question for Esganians. The Hangnysti would have taken them straight to the Spear in a relatively short hop . . . except that it flowed through the lands of both the Bloody Swords and Horse Stealers alike before it crossed the Ghoul Moor. No merchant would tempt hradani with such a prize, and even hradani avoided the Ghoul Moor. "

So, going from what you've said a hradani expansion into the area would be possible, especially if Duke Tellian's son won against the ghouls. I was wondering whether or not the ghouls were incorporeal or not, although i think the nature of trolls is now in no doubt :). Since Tellian's son defeated them then they must be corporeal, and defeatable, making the expansion possible.

Your point about the Purple Lords is valid too, although i'm not sure whether or not they would actively seek to stop Bahnak. If the hradani secured control of the area then, with treaties with the Sothoii hopefully in place, trade would pick up. this would be desirable from their point of view and the Sothoii, according to the above paragraph, as it would cut trading costs. So they would have a powerful vested interest in seeing the Trolls and Ghouls eradicated, although much depends on their frame of mind. From the information we have already it is entirely likely that they would try and stop it, if only to keep the competition down. I think their monopoly on the Spear River is due to the fact that they control 3 out of five of the main outlets onto the sea, as well as a large portion of the river itself. As such, they may not mind new hradani access to it, after all the Sothoii have had access for centuries.

I think Bahnak would be interested in it too, one as a possible way to secure the allegiance and distraction of any possible enemies within the new hradani nation - although they're apparently very loyal, and two the increased trade would be a valuable source of revenue with which to finance his likely building plans. Depending on relations with the Sothoii, they may even operate a joint military venture there! This could help bind the two nations together and overcome mutual distrust - at least in the army, although at the moment this seems rather unlikely.

In fact, according to the paragraph above, the nations which would probably most wish to obstruct a hradani expansion into Ghoul Moor/Troll Garth would be the small states on Bahnak's western border - between the hradani and the mountains (Esgan and Moretz). Now that Bahnak has united the northern hradani the land directly under his control is at least twice their size. If he was to secure the Moor and Garth, the resulting loss of trade by them and gain by the hradani would mean that eventually they would end up with a large, powerful and rich hradani country right on their borders. Not to mention the dwarves offer to Bahnak, which i'm sure he has accepted.

I'm sure i've missed something probably, and to be honest ive said rather a lot based on just one paragraph out of three books worth. Still, i think my conclusions are at least partially valid. I hope so at any rate :D.

Eagerly awaiting replies

Thank You
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by Rook   » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:04 pm

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WiseMan999 wrote:
-SNIP-

I think Bahnak would be interested in it too, one as a possible way to secure the allegiance and distraction of any possible enemies within the new hradani nation - although they're apparently very loyal, and two the increased trade would be a valuable source of revenue with which to finance his likely building plans. Depending on relations with the Sothoii, they may even operate a joint military venture there! This could help bind the two nations together and overcome mutual distrust - at least in the army, although at the moment this seems rather unlikely.

In fact, according to the paragraph above, the nations which would probably most wish to obstruct a hradani expansion into Ghoul Moor/Troll Garth would be the small states on Bahnak's western border - between the hradani and the mountains (Esgan and Moretz). Now that Bahnak has united the northern hradani the land directly under his control is at least twice their size. If he was to secure the Moor and Garth, the resulting loss of trade by them and gain by the hradani would mean that eventually they would end up with a large, powerful and rich hradani country right on their borders. Not to mention the dwarves offer to Bahnak, which i'm sure he has accepted.

-SNIP-



Esgan and Moretz will most likely gain far more from expanded trade via a newly opened route to the Spear river than they would lose in local trade to the Hradani. Remember that the bulk of trade goods are coming from the Empire of the Axe. I imagine the best route to the northern spear river would be to follow the same route that Bahzell and Brandark took when they were escorting the last trade caravan of the year in Oath of Swords. This would direct most of the caravans through Esgan and Morentz before it even got to the Hradani lands.


As for joint military operations with the Sothoii... I find that difficult to see any time soon without direct intervention of the gods. (i.e. dark gods interfere and Bahzell slaps together an army of Sothoii and Hradani to counter it). While there will be a peace treaty between the Hradani and the Sothoii, not attacking your bitter generational enemy is a long way away from being brothers in arms.
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by WiseMan999   » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:19 pm

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Yes, TBH even i find the idea of a joint military operation between hradani and the Sothoii anytime soon to be rather a stretch, and i agree with you about Esgan and Moretz too. Rather, then it would be the countries/cities further down the river that wouldn't benefit, as the trade would be diverted to flow through Esgan/Moretz and hradani lands to the Spear River and from there all the way down to the Purple Lord's lands.

Also, TBH, i'm not sure when this could actually be planned. Although taking Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor would provide immediate benefits, whether or not the hradani are strong enough to do it at the moment is another matter. Bahnak is engaged with reforming (i think) the whole hradani state and consolidating his authority. It also depends on the state of his army and the need for land as to whether or not he would actually be able to hold it.

If his army is a regular one, rather than perhaps a levy or some sort of feudal type, then he should be able to keep Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor fully pacified throughout the year, although he'd be bleeding money at the time. If they are a levy/feudal then they will probably want to go home for the winter.

The need for land is, i think at the moment, not great. Going from Bazhell's and Brandark's escape from Navahk and the Bloody Sword's lands then not all of the land available is being used, although they did make the effort to go through the wild - and if i remember correctly they went through the forest. Anyway what i'm getting at is that it would prove hard for Bahnak to control fully (IMO) the Garth and Moor if he a) can't station his army there full time and b) can't persuade settlers to go there.

Of course, all of this is just speculating, and unless we know more about the conditions within the War God's world then the viability of the projected expansion will always be in doubt. Personally, i think a concerted effort to take Troll Garth would probably be successful - primarily because i imagine the trolls to be pure dumb fighting machines. As the nature of the Ghouls is more elusive, i really have no idea whether or not it would be successful. Of course, the whole military balance has changed now that the dwarves have offered their famous armour and weapons, and their restrictions on just who those weapons are used against i think will be a powerful incentive for Bahnak to look closely at at least Troll Garth.

As an aside, i wonder who the Sharmi are that i can see on the map in the central forest. DW has focused a lot more on the northern states in the last two books, maybe it's time to redress the balance. Of course, i think the next book (whenever that may be) will have to tie up the political situation in the Kingdom of the Sothoii first. Still, i can see room for more people. Wonder what Wencit will be doing this time too.

P.S. I know i ramble, sorry.

Thank You
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by Rook   » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:38 pm

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I agree that Bahnak probably has his hands full trying to integrate the Bloody Swords and Horse Stealers into a nation. He is stuck in a situation where he is now ruler over two extremely aggressive populations who don't like each other. He needs to find something for them to focus on that will keep them from each other's throats. He has agreed to make peace treaties with all of the surrounding Human countries, so he cannot distract his restive warriors by encouraging them to raid outside of Hradani Borders. TBH, I think it is likely that Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor could be used to give his people something besides themselves to focus their aggression on. The benefit of more land and expanded trade are just added gravy from Bahnak's point of view.

As for motivation to colonize... I imagine that there are a lot of poor Hradani who would want to improve their lot by carving out their own farm, especially of Bahnak were to assist them by using his new trade benefits with the Empire of the Axe to provide settlers with cheap equipment and livestock to get a start.

If Bahnak were to establish a couple of strong, well manned forts and require anyone who settled in the nearby areas to fortify their farms, then the overall cost to his army's resources should be well within its reach. Especially if he can swing it to encourage people who are discontent with the changes he is making in the lands he has recently conquered to move out to new lands in Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor.

WiseMan999 wrote:Yes, TBH even i find the idea of a joint military operation between hradani and the Sothoii anytime soon to be rather a stretch, and i agree with you about Esgan and Moretz too. Rather, then it would be the countries/cities further down the river that wouldn't benefit, as the trade would be diverted to flow through Esgan/Moretz and hradani lands to the Spear River and from there all the way down to the Purple Lord's lands.

Also, TBH, i'm not sure when this could actually be planned. Although taking Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor would provide immediate benefits, whether or not the hradani are strong enough to do it at the moment is another matter. Bahnak is engaged with reforming (i think) the whole hradani state and consolidating his authority. It also depends on the state of his army and the need for land as to whether or not he would actually be able to hold it.

If his army is a regular one, rather than perhaps a levy or some sort of feudal type, then he should be able to keep Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor fully pacified throughout the year, although he'd be bleeding money at the time. If they are a levy/feudal then they will probably want to go home for the winter.

The need for land is, i think at the moment, not great. Going from Bazhell's and Brandark's escape from Navahk and the Bloody Sword's lands then not all of the land available is being used, although they did make the effort to go through the wild - and if i remember correctly they went through the forest. Anyway what i'm getting at is that it would prove hard for Bahnak to control fully (IMO) the Garth and Moor if he a) can't station his army there full time and b) can't persuade settlers to go there.

Of course, all of this is just speculating, and unless we know more about the conditions within the War God's world then the viability of the projected expansion will always be in doubt. Personally, i think a concerted effort to take Troll Garth would probably be successful - primarily because i imagine the trolls to be pure dumb fighting machines. As the nature of the Ghouls is more elusive, i really have no idea whether or not it would be successful. Of course, the whole military balance has changed now that the dwarves have offered their famous armour and weapons, and their restrictions on just who those weapons are used against i think will be a powerful incentive for Bahnak to look closely at at least Troll Garth.

As an aside, i wonder who the Sharmi are that i can see on the map in the central forest. DW has focused a lot more on the northern states in the last two books, maybe it's time to redress the balance. Of course, i think the next book (whenever that may be) will have to tie up the political situation in the Kingdom of the Sothoii first. Still, i can see room for more people. Wonder what Wencit will be doing this time too.

P.S. I know i ramble, sorry.

Thank You
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by WiseMan999   » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:30 pm

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You always make me change my view Rook :D. I would say that you make very good points in regards to both his ability to pacify the newly aquired territory and his ability to aquire settlers for his new lands. Although we don't actually know the population of the northern hradani, after all they are supposed to be less fertile than Humans. On the other hand, I remember that Bazhell mentioned just that very thing in War God's Oath, pointing out that even though they are less fertile they have a longer amount of time in which to have children in - Bahnak himself has "brought five sons and six daughters into the world, with nine of'em still living and me the next to youngest of the lot."

As an aside, do the hradani need more food than humans? I know they get some of their energey from the magic field, so does that substitute some of their energy needs? I was just wondering because if they need the same (on average) amount then although they might take longer to increase in population the land they own will be able to support the same amount of hradani per square metre as humans could, rather than less as I previously assumed. Eventually another superpower may emerge, I certainly wouldn't want to face 7ft tall hradani weilding the very best in weapons and armour (I wonder if Bahnak would encourage the development of an armoury industry to rival the Axemen's?)

With the above assumption in mind, the first few decades would be the most precarious for the settlers then, until they had the numbers to properly resist the Trolls/Ghouls. Depending upon how it is conquered though, this may not be a problem. Going back to your earlier post Rook, if the Purple Lords (or anyone else) do stir up trouble in the region then the hradani may be in a postion to kill the majority of the Trolls/Ghouls - I was thinking maybe the Dark Gods would force them to work together therefore gathering a lot of them in one place to be killed and smash their leadership(?) - with the help of Bazhell of course and the rest of the hradani chapter of Tomanak.

Of course, that also makes the assumption that they don't really have leadership naturally, and are solitary creatures. However, I think that is reasonable given their bloodthirsty nature - they would probably fight until only one is left. Also, if they are 9ft tall naturally (as opposed to with the aid of the magic field like the hradani) then they would need a huge amount of food to keep them going - meaning they would have rather large ranges in which to roam. So if they can be killed reliably they could pribably be wiped out in a few decades. Again, I have no idea with the Ghouls.

As another aside, have you read anything about hradani merchants? Although the opening up of the Spear River would be an astute act of international diplomacy, it would be rather annoying if Bahnak couldn't find any merchants to trade down the river for him, I'm sure merchants would be extremely eager to trade even with hradani if it opened up a new market for them.

As usual, I remain convinced I've missed something. Eagerly awaiting the poking of holes in my theories.

Thank You
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by rafael   » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:48 am

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In regard to Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor I think that while a Sothii army is out I would be curious as to whether an Axeman army might help. Kilthan said how he would love to have offered an army for Sharna but politics got in the way. And even if there would not be an official army Kilthan has his guards and has hired armies to take out bandits they are probably small ones but the precedent is there and He is not the only Axeman or Dwarven merchant who would love to brake the Purple Lords monopoly.

Another potential source for an army is one or more of the Chivalric orders devoted to one or more of the Gods of Light.

And on the population issue I think that there will be a population boom soon because Bazel was thinking about the farming techniques he saw among humans and how his father should hire some.
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by FriarBob   » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:55 am

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rafael wrote:And on the population issue I think that there will be a population boom soon because Bahzel was thinking about the farming techniques he saw among humans and how his father should hire some.


In some ways I would expect you're probably right. There are some difficulties. I think the pregnancy period is extremely likely to be extended beyond our typical nine months. Even if not, it's obvious it's rare for a Hradani female to have her first child before 30, while in a pre-industrial human society that would be more like 14-15. This would suggest a strong likelihood of a later puberty.

But that also suggests a later menopause as well, which means 60 or 70 year old Hradani women may still have children on a regular basis. Given that a kid in their 20s is old enough to send a kid off to war, it's possible at least some parents who sent a kid off to fight is are still fertile. Among those who are and who also lost kids in the recent war will probably find themselves in need of comforting each other, and the obvious results are rather likely. Then war heroes are going to come home and likely find themselves the focus of a LOT of female attention. Other widows of men who died in combat may find themselves reattached to one of his buddies in his combat units. Etc, etc, etc.

On the other hand, it takes time to implement those technologies and make enough food to be ABLE to support that population growth. But since there had to be at least SOME combat casualties as well, that will give them at least a little "wiggle room" before they start having any real potential for problem.
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Re: Ghoul Moor and Troll Garth
Post by Rook   » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:34 am

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I always had the impression that the only reason why Troll Garth was a problem was because the Bloody Swords and Horse Stealers were so focused on fighting each other, they didn't have the resources to 'tame' Troll Garth. Now that there is peace, outside intervention is probably not needed.

rafael wrote:In regard to Troll Garth and Ghoul Moor I think that while a Sothii army is out I would be curious as to whether an Axeman army might help. Kilthan said how he would love to have offered an army for Sharna but politics got in the way. And even if there would not be an official army Kilthan has his guards and has hired armies to take out bandits they are probably small ones but the precedent is there and He is not the only Axeman or Dwarven merchant who would love to brake the Purple Lords monopoly.

Another potential source for an army is one or more of the Chivalric orders devoted to one or more of the Gods of Light.

And on the population issue I think that there will be a population boom soon because Bazel was thinking about the farming techniques he saw among humans and how his father should hire some.
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