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Silk Town-Thesmar Canal

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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:43 am

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Isilith wrote:The two of you keep bringing up Desnairs shipbuilding capability as proof that Desnair SHOULD have had a navy. Totally ignoring the textev that states that shipbuilding capability was built up by the church AFTER the Armageddon Reef disaster, so that they could build a new NoG to fight Charis.

It doesn't take much shipbuilding capability to have had a navy that you built up slowly. The Navy of God was needed in a hurry, so the build up is as consistent with a small shipbuilding capability as it is with none at all.

It does mean that Desnair didn't have the shipbuilding capability to support a continually modernized, rapidly expanding, frequently refitted navy, or one that would be able to rebuild losses quickly. But that's not on the table in any case.

It does at least suggest that Desnair didn't have a navy that was even nearly large or modern or frequently refitted, so it's some evidence for the no navy at all, no good navy, and no large navy theories.

The no navy at all theory is still hard to take.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by HungryKing   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:29 am

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Desnair did have an active Navy, or at least a fleet, before OAR, in fact, according to the wiki it was fourty vessels at its highest strength, but was only twelve at the time of the battle of Darcos Sound, all foreign built.

I think at some point some Desnari Emperor, or his advisors, had hit upon the concept of bypassing the Siddarmarkian defenses and landing in their rear. At the level of preMerlin Safehold calvarly hold where ever there is no infantry. Of course the logistics of sea transporting calvarly is rather daunting, so the project was abandoned.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:51 pm

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HungryKing wrote:Desnair did have an active Navy, or at least a fleet, before OAR, in fact, according to the wiki it was fourty vessels at its highest strength, but was only twelve at the time of the battle of Darcos Sound, all foreign built.

I think at some point some Desnari Emperor, or his advisors, had hit upon the concept of bypassing the Siddarmarkian defenses and landing in their rear. At the level of preMerlin Safehold calvarly hold where ever there is no infantry. Of course the logistics of sea transporting calvarly is rather daunting, so the project was abandoned.


Textev for first paragraph is found in AMF. In addition to this it is noted that one of the reasons Desnair never developed as a sea power was its focus upon its competition with Siddarmark, another land power.

The church paid for the building capacity developed at Ithyria and Gerya which did not exist prior to that despite Ithyria's excellent natural harbor.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by McGuiness   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:27 pm

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n7axw wrote:Textev for first paragraph is found in AMF. In addition to this it is noted that one of the reasons Desnair never developed as a sea power was its focus upon its competition with Siddarmark, another land power.

The church paid for the building capacity developed at Ithyria and Gerya which did not exist prior to that despite Ithyria's excellent natural harbor.

Don
That sorta makes me wonder what Desnair would have done if the CoGA hadn't intervened and prevented Siddarmark from seizing both Silkiah and North Watch. A navy would have come in rather handy at that point.

At the very least, a fast bunch of schooners are needed to inhibit piracy and smuggling, even if Desnair didn't build galleys - which is pretty hard to swallow no matter what the Wiki says. Almost every other country that isn't swallowed up by decadence and bribery (think Harchong) had a navy composed of dozens of galleys that were actually seaworthy, yet Desnair didn't. (I get the feeling that Siddarmark got a message or ten from the CoGA that building a navy would be a very bad idea...)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:13 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
n7axw wrote:Textev for first paragraph is found in AMF. In addition to this it is noted that one of the reasons Desnair never developed as a sea power was its focus upon its competition with Siddarmark, another land power.

The church paid for the building capacity developed at Ithyria and Gerya which did not exist prior to that despite Ithyria's excellent natural harbor.

Don
That sorta makes me wonder what Desnair would have done if the CoGA hadn't intervened and prevented Siddarmark from seizing both Silkiah and North Watch. A navy would have come in rather handy at that point.
It probably would have started coming in handy just to lean on Silk Town to get them to capitulate to Desnair rather than keep dealing with Siddarmark. And likewise for Siddarmark. I guess both of them just had more than enough power on land and too much commitment to furthering it to want to dabble in a navy that would be an additional expense for secondary use. I think Bismarck felt about that way about a Prussian/Imperial German Navy when he was in power, for similar reasons.

An answer to the argument - for those without resources coming out the wazoo - has to be in terms of what you can get with a small navy, second to many. A lot of conventional thinking answers, "Not enough." Maybe Desnair and Siddarmark accepted that and left their coasts defended by nothing more than guns on the shore.
At the very least, a fast bunch of schooners are needed to inhibit piracy and smuggling, even if Desnair didn't build galleys - which is pretty hard to swallow no matter what the Wiki says. Almost every other country that isn't swallowed up by decadence and bribery (think Harchong) had a navy composed of dozens of galleys that were actually seaworthy, yet Desnair didn't. (I get the feeling that Siddarmark got a message or ten from the CoGA that building a navy would be a very bad idea...)

If Siddarmark didn't have galleys, then Desnair didn't have a serious worry historically about another navy. So a navy for them is just for use against opponents of opportunity or piracy suppression. The Treaty of Silk Town eliminated their only real target of opportunity. I doubt they ever considered seriously the naval ambitions it'd take to make Tarot one, and the mutual defense agreement with Charis would make that even less appetizing.

So, pirates. With naval warfare being practically galley warfare, it'd be very hard to handle pirates at sea. Maybe the desultory little navy Desnair did have was enough to keep harbors patrolled, or to escort troop transports to go stomp pirate bases to discourage the practice.

Or, there's money. Desnair may have had a policy of buying off pirates that became nuisances. It's risky, certainly, and rubs anyone's pride the wrong way. Or if they wanted to react violently and in a naval fashion, money could buy them Tarotisian mercenary galleys. Tarot's a plausible candidate for the source of the galleys they bought from outside their own ports, too.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:33 pm

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To reflect a bit further, after Desnair started getting the howling s**t kicked out of it by those Siddarmarkian pike blocks, I suspect that they focused down even more narrowly on defending themselves on land.

Then there was another potential adversary to worry about sinse Harchong had expanded into Howard. While we don't have any textev of conflict between Harchong and Desnair, even a brief glimpse at a map shows the potential for such conflict as being a further sourse of concern for Desnair.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by Isilith   » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:09 am

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n7axw wrote:To reflect a bit further, after Desnair started getting the howling s**t kicked out of it by those Siddarmarkian pike blocks, I suspect that they focused down even more narrowly on defending themselves on land.

Then there was another potential adversary to worry about sinse Harchong had expanded into Howard. While we don't have any textev of conflict between Harchong and Desnair, even a brief glimpse at a map shows the potential for such conflict as being a further sourse of concern for Desnair.

Don


I would argue that the map with the huge Fraihan's Wall, between South Harchong and Desnair, would argue that there was some serious antagonism between the two.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by n7axw   » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:05 am

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Isilith wrote:
n7axw wrote:To reflect a bit further, after Desnair started getting the howling s**t kicked out of it by those Siddarmarkian pike blocks, I suspect that they focused down even more narrowly on defending themselves on land.

Then there was another potential adversary to worry about sinse Harchong had expanded into Howard. While we don't have any textev of conflict between Harchong and Desnair, even a brief glimpse at a map shows the potential for such conflict as being a further sourse of concern for Desnair.

Don


I would argue that the map with the huge Fraihan's Wall, between South Harchong and Desnair, would argue that there was some serious antagonism between the two.


Fraihan's wall? I've missed a trick here. Can you enlighten me a bit on that one. It sounds intriguing, but I don't remember where that comes from...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:42 am

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n7axw wrote:
Isilith wrote:I would argue that the map with the huge Fraihan's Wall, between South Harchong and Desnair, would argue that there was some serious antagonism between the two.


Fraihan's wall? I've missed a trick here. Can you enlighten me a bit on that one. It sounds intriguing, but I don't remember where that comes from...

Don

Check out http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... hold/232/1

Fraihan's Wall is near the equator, south of Hankey Sound. Just where it runs is not clear, but it seems like it's some or all of the border between Coast Guard in Desnair and the Shwei Peninsula in South Harchong.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by Louis R   » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:00 pm

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Bismark's major argument against a serious fleet was that it would bring Prussia into conflict with the UK. Something that he felt was the last was the last thing his country needed - very wise, that.

The primary reason Desnair never developed as a naval power is that it's damned hard to get your horse up to a full charge on a heaving deck. When you further consider that piracy is a problem for merchants [unless you're making money from it, of course, in which case where's the problem?] and one those peasants in Dohlar and Charis were dealing with just fine anyway, there's even less need for the Empire to trouble itself with something so commoner-ridden as a Navy.

BTW, according to RFC the canal to Mahrosa was built after the Treaty of Silk Town. Not only would the Empire have had to be arm-twisted to let the Dohlarans through, there's a pretty good chance they deliberately built it too small for Dohlaran shipping to start with.

As for the Salthar canal, RFC carefully avoided saying it could take Dohlaran galleys [or that it couldn't], and in any case it, like all of Silkiah, was expressly demilitarized by the Treaty. The Grand Duke couldn't have let Dohlar through if he'd wanted to without an explicit decree from the Church.

n7axw wrote:Textev for first paragraph is found in AMF. In addition to this it is noted that one of the reasons Desnair never developed as a sea power was its focus upon its competition with Siddarmark, another land power.

The church paid for the building capacity developed at Ithyria and Gerya which did not exist prior to that despite Ithyria's excellent natural harbor.

Don
That sorta makes me wonder what Desnair would have done if the CoGA hadn't intervened and prevented Siddarmark from seizing both Silkiah and North Watch. A navy would have come in rather handy at that point.[/quote]

JeffEngel wrote:
McGuiness wrote:It probably would have started coming in handy just to lean on Silk Town to get them to capitulate to Desnair rather than keep dealing with Siddarmark. And likewise for Siddarmark. I guess both of them just had more than enough power on land and too much commitment to furthering it to want to dabble in a navy that would be an additional expense for secondary use. I think Bismarck felt about that way about a Prussian/Imperial German Navy when he was in power, for similar reasons.

An answer to the argument - for those without resources coming out the wazoo - has to be in terms of what you can get with a small navy, second to many. A lot of conventional thinking answers, "Not enough." Maybe Desnair and Siddarmark accepted that and left their coasts defended by nothing more than guns on the shore.

If Siddarmark didn't have galleys, then Desnair didn't have a serious worry historically about another navy. So a navy for them is just for use against opponents of opportunity or piracy suppression. The Treaty of Silk Town eliminated their only real target of opportunity. I doubt they ever considered seriously the naval ambitions it'd take to make Tarot one, and the mutual defense agreement with Charis would make that even less appetizing.

So, pirates. With naval warfare being practically galley warfare, it'd be very hard to handle pirates at sea. Maybe the desultory little navy Desnair did have was enough to keep harbors patrolled, or to escort troop transports to go stomp pirate bases to discourage the practice.

Or, there's money. Desnair may have had a policy of buying off pirates that became nuisances. It's risky, certainly, and rubs anyone's pride the wrong way. Or if they wanted to react violently and in a naval fashion, money could buy them Tarotisian mercenary galleys. Tarot's a plausible candidate for the source of the galleys they bought from outside their own ports, too.
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