Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Silk Town-Thesmar Canal

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:42 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4838
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Weberfan,

Actually RFC has stated in a post or textev that the two sets of locks on the Salthar canal are about a third of the way in from each coast to get over a central plateau.

That central third is fresh water [the rest is sea water] collected from many sources including rainwater catchment basins to supply it, which maybe another proof Shan-wei did it.

Your humble servant has suggested several ploys or schemes for scout-snipers and Nynian's local agents to take and hold those locks until relieved by the ironclads with reinforcements dashing up from Silkiah Bay; probably after the engineers have dealt with any barriers sunk at the entrance like they did on the Seridahn River snippet, bearing in mind the water is much warmer in the tropics.

Please feel free to suggest your own.

Building larger locks to take the larger ironclads and even galleons with over 20' drafts is not something done quickly, though excavating several hundred feet for wider longer locks is a lot less than some of the canal projects I've proposed for Tarot, Chisholm and Siddarmark. ;)

The problem becomes where does the extra water come from?

That of course depends on the amount of traffic the new locks will attract.

I suspect eventually a sea level or entirely sea water canal would be the result as the catch basins etc become devoted entirely to serving the human and animal population of the rapidly growing Silkiah.

Dynamiting and building a pair of larger locks using wooden temporary expedients, like the CoGA, still won't be quick but might be done by fall or winter, possibly depending on the state of RFC's liver. ;)

Personally I'd prefer to cross the canal in a couple of days or less, to secure Salthar etc before Thirsk can show up in a 5day or so.

L


WeberFan wrote:
Louis R wrote:If it was built to the same plan as the Holy Langhorne - I think it's a safe bet that Shan Wei ordered it - then it looks touch and go for the riverboats. IIRC, the River IIs are actually ~30' longer than the lock chambers on the HLC.


*quote="n7axw"*What I am wondering about the Sathar Canal is if it's big enough to accommodate the EOC's riverclads.

I think Lyonheart is right in predicting that the EOC will seize control of that canal in the near term future.

Don*quote*

Hmmm. Thought about this for a while, then consulted one of the maps. Thing is, we don't know what the geography is like between Port Salthar and Silk Town. We have the Salthar mountains to the northwest of Port Salthar, and we have what appear to be hills to the south... But if the canal path itself is flat, then Charisian engineers could pretty easily build "bypass locks" to accommodate the larger vessels. Wouldn't need too many of them if the terrain is flat. They also wouldn't need to be "pretty" - just functional. These "bypass locks" would be collocated with the regular locks, but off to the side (and likely not bidirectional either). Dig out and frame in a lock that is offset laterally from the original ones, then dig out the trench on the "downlock" side, then dig out the trench on the "uplock" side and voila - bypass lock installed and ready to do. If the terrain is rocky? Well, that's what explosives are for.

SPOILER ELEMENT FOLLOWS!!!







Sure would be nice to be able to show up on Dohlar's doorstep in Salthar Bay and Hankey Sound with a fleet of ironclad riverboats sporting breechloading cannon wouldn't it!
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:11 am

isaac_newton
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

lyonheart wrote:Hi Weberfan,

Actually RFC has stated in a post or textev that the two sets of locks on the Salthar canal are about a third of the way in from each coast to get over a central plateau.

That central third is fresh water [the rest is sea water] collected from many sources including rainwater catchment basins to supply it, which maybe another proof Shan-wei did it.
SNIP


Hi Lyon

I strongly suspect those two sets of locks are actually a pair of chains of locks, unless it is a really really low central plataeau! Was there anything more definite in the textev?
Top
Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:30 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5867
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

This compendium is by no means complete but just what I remember off the top of my mind and could find quickly.

First in OAR, in August 890 YoG, chapter IV or page 128 in the paperback, we have the statement that none of the continental powers; Harchong, Siddarmark, the Temple Lands "with the possible exception of DESNAR had a naval tradition".

Yet in BSRA [June 892 chapter 1, we're told Desnar and Sodar have almost as small shipyards as we [KotTL] do" which is curious, though others have suggested court intrigue like China or Korea for turning their backs on the sea and fascinating innovations.

In AMF, in the lead up to HMS Destiny's battle we have a few references to Desnari 'career naval officers' who are pretty experienced either in galleys or galleons but not both yet; so things are obviously not as corrupt as in Harchong's navy, and as the USN proved in the War of 1812, even a very small navy [the pathetic Democrat-Republicans tried to keep only one frigate active at a time] can be very professionally competent, though the new Imperial Desnarian Navy certainly wasn't up to the USN's standards.

I know there are other mentions of past Desnari naval power that King Gorjah might have called upon if it still existed when he was so desperate about the ICN blockade; but I don't have the time to dig them all out at the moment.

L


Hi Lyonheart,

Ok. I see what you are referring to. I'm still not convinced that this adds up to a significant naval tradition for something the size of Desnair. It looks pretty obvious to me that Desnair's primary military investment was on land and the navy was pretty much an afterthought at best.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:40 am

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

n7axw wrote:Ok. I see what you are referring to. I'm still not convinced that this adds up to a significant naval tradition for something the size of Desnair. It looks pretty obvious to me that Desnair's primary military investment was on land and the navy was pretty much an afterthought at best.

Don

It looks like we're down to quibbling over the size of the afterthought that was the Desnairian Navy. There may at least be a consensus at this point that it was larger than none at all: afterthought indeed, but not no-thought-at-all. Certainly not much of a naval tradition per capita, and probably a shadow of what it once was, just more than nothing and more often than never.
Top
Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:30 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5867
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

JeffEngel wrote:
n7axw wrote:Ok. I see what you are referring to. I'm still not convinced that this adds up to a significant naval tradition for something the size of Desnair. It looks pretty obvious to me that Desnair's primary military investment was on land and the navy was pretty much an afterthought at best.

Don

It looks like we're down to quibbling over the size of the afterthought that was the Desnairian Navy. There may at least be a consensus at this point that it was larger than none at all: afterthought indeed, but not no-thought-at-all. Certainly not much of a naval tradition per capita, and probably a shadow of what it once was, just more than nothing and more often than never.


Agreed.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by Louis R   » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:21 pm

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

In a word, no.

It's true that if you take the existing canal out of service you can dig the new one in the bed of the old. Under some conditions that will reduce the amount of dirt to be moved, but in other cases can actually increase it. In any case, that usually isn't practical because you don't want to lose the capacity you already have.

Most of the labour and other resources in canal building go into the locks, and it's rarely possible to enlarge a lock without rebuilding it from the ground up. Ummm... or from the ground down, in most cases :)

SYED wrote:It is said the canals in the land bridge region are limited in size and capacity.. we all know that making a canal is a long and hard process, but is expansion of an existing one any easier.
I can see silkiah getting made part of the empire, but desnair could be taken by the republic.. It gives tham access to a whle new coast, and if they aid charis logistically in their operations there, it would be a way to pay of part of their debt.
Top
Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by gamarus   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:03 am

gamarus
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:52 pm
Location: Denmark

McGuiness wrote:So here's the Cliff Notes version. Siddarmark had already captured all of Silkiah and North Watch, and had Desnair trapped in Howard along a short, mountainous front, which it could have easily defended or even expanded well before Merlin showed up with innovations like rifles and artillery. However, some vicar with a lot of influence was probably rather upset that Siddarmark caused him to lose all the lovely bribes he wanted to skim from the Salthar Canal, and Desnair was pretty upset about losing them too. So they basically did a Hanth and got the CoGA to intervene, a couple of centuries after Siddarmark had seized the canal.



I'm sorry, but I can't see anywhere that Siddarmark had held Silkiah (or North Watch) for two centuries prior to the Treaty of Silk Town.
More likeliy, the latest spath of Siddarmark/Desnarian fighting rolled the Desnarians back once more, losing Silkiah and with Siddarmarkian forces in North Watch, the CoGA stepped in and dictated the terms in the Treaty.
After all, if Siddarmark had held Silkiah for centuries, don't you think they would have gotten much further into Howard each time the bloody minded Desnarian Emperors revealed their stupidity?
Top
Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:52 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4838
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Isaac Newton,

Sorry, I don't think so.

The lock sets are 150-160 miles apart, so I don't think they are 'chains' in any way.

Actually, it is evidently a somewhat higher central plateau that Shan'wei's canal goes over, not around or through, which is very interesting for those who think it could have gone around the plateau or simple plowed through it as other canals did, but remember such problems didn't bother Shan-wei, who wasn't trying to impress the colonists with god like powers like the archangels.

Making a third of the canal fresh water, required quite a number of catch basins and aqueducts apparently, so they will need to be secured as well, but not as immediately as the the locks since I doubt they've been prepared for demolition the way the locks have.

I pointed out before that the fresh water will eventually be used for human and animal consumption when the canal goes all seawater some time in the future.

L


[quote="isaac_newton"][quote="lyonheart"]Hi Weberfan,

Actually RFC has stated in a post or textev that the two sets of locks on the Salthar canal are about a third of the way in from each coast to get over a central plateau.

That central third is fresh water [the rest is sea water] collected from many sources including rainwater catchment basins to supply it, which maybe another proof Shan-wei did it.
SNIP
[/quote]

Hi Lyon

I strongly suspect those two sets of locks are actually a pair of chains of locks, unless it is a really really low central plataeau! Was there anything more definite in the textev?[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by gamarus   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:23 am

gamarus
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:52 pm
Location: Denmark

You cannot* use a single lock to get a barge up more than a few meters, maybe abit more than 5 meters. For that you need multiple locks in a chain, each gaining a few meters till you get to the level of the plateau. There will be a 'chain' of locks on each side of the plateau.

*There is some very dramatic barge elevators/escalators designed in the Victorian era to lift a barge out of a channel at one level and deposit it at another that exceed my number above by a wide margin. One is especially elegant, using counterveights and water taken on as ballast at the higher level it is operating enltirely without engines. That tough takes a lot of iron or steel, cables, gasquets and grease. And it's only practical if you need to scale a near vertical distance.


lyonheart wrote:Hi Isaac Newton,

Sorry, I don't think so.

The lock sets are 150-160 miles apart, so I don't think they are 'chains' in any way.

Actually, it is evidently a somewhat higher central plateau that Shan'wei's canal goes over, not around or through, which is very interesting for those who think it could have gone around the plateau or simple plowed through it as other canals did, but remember such problems didn't bother Shan-wei, who wasn't trying to impress the colonists with god like powers like the archangels.

Making a third of the canal fresh water, required quite a number of catch basins and aqueducts apparently, so they will need to be secured as well, but not as immediately as the the locks since I doubt they've been prepared for demolition the way the locks have.

I pointed out before that the fresh water will eventually be used for human and animal consumption when the canal goes all seawater some time in the future.

L


isaac_newton wrote:
Hi Lyon

I strongly suspect those two sets of locks are actually a pair of chains of locks, unless it is a really really low central plataeau! Was there anything more definite in the textev?
Top
Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:42 am

isaac_newton
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

lyonheart wrote:Hi Isaac Newton,

Sorry, I don't think so.

The lock sets are 150-160 miles apart, so I don't think they are 'chains' in any way.

Actually, it is evidently a somewhat higher central plateau that Shan'wei's canal goes over, not around or through, which is very interesting for those who think it could have gone around the plateau or simple plowed through it as other canals did, but remember such problems didn't bother Shan-wei, who wasn't trying to impress the colonists with god like powers like the archangels.

Making a third of the canal fresh water, required quite a number of catch basins and aqueducts apparently, so they will need to be secured as well, but not as immediately as the the locks since I doubt they've been prepared for demolition the way the locks have.

I pointed out before that the fresh water will eventually be used for human and animal consumption when the canal goes all seawater some time in the future.

L


isaac_newton wrote:
Hi Lyon

I strongly suspect those two sets of locks are actually a pair of chains of locks, unless it is a really really low central plataeau! Was there anything more definite in the textev?


Hi Lyon.

Let me explain why I think that there is likely to be a 'chain of locks'. We have a lot of canals in the UK with locks. Each lock chamber has a specific 'rise' [height difference between upper and lower sections of the water going into/out of that chamber].

That rise is not very large [I think about 20ft max, and more normally 10ft or so].

Therefore if you want to run a canal up an escarpment [edge of a plateau] which is several hundred foot, you physically must have a sequence [chain] of many locks running from top to bottom of the slope.

One famous one is the Caen Hill Locks [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen_Hill_Locks] where 29 chambers give a total rise of over 200ft.

Hence my comment about the low central plateau. It just seemed unlikely to me that the central plateau was only 10-20ft above sea level.

[Edit] I see that in portugal there is a lock with a 100ft rise - but not sure if that purely under gravity.
Top

Return to Safehold