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Proscription friendly refrigeration?

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Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Undercover Fat Kid   » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:45 pm

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I tried to look for it, but I didn’t see it already addressed anywhere, but what would stop the introduction of an ammonia cycle refrigerator? Ammonia refrigeration was the original, and it’s still in use today because it is cost and energy efficient.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:50 pm

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Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I tried to look for it, but I didn’t see it already addressed anywhere, but what would stop the introduction of an ammonia cycle refrigerator? Ammonia refrigeration was the original, and it’s still in use today because it is cost and energy efficient.


It's not energy efficient. It's just when your power source is heat the inefficiency of the ammonia cycle is less than the inefficiency of converting that heat to electricity.

I do agree it can be done within the proscriptions.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Daryl   » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:34 am

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I grew up in the country without electricity initially. We had kerosene fridges. A flame on a wick suspended in kerosene heated a bulb, the ammonia went to an expansion chamber, losing heat when it expanded (Boyles law?), and this cooled the insulated chamber.
They worked, but as soon as we had electricity we went to compression refrigeration as it was stronger.
Sure though, it would be acceptable on Safehold and would work.
Come to think of it though, using steam or water power to run the compressor should be OK for normal refrigeration, just not as portable.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by jlrice54   » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:00 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I tried to look for it, but I didn’t see it already addressed anywhere, but what would stop the introduction of an ammonia cycle refrigerator? Ammonia refrigeration was the original, and it’s still in use today because it is cost and energy efficient.


It's not energy efficient. It's just when your power source is heat the inefficiency of the ammonia cycle is less than the inefficiency of converting that heat to electricity.

I do agree it can be done within the proscriptions.


Ammonia is still the refrigerant of choice in massive industrial plants like food processing, chemical factories, etc. It's cheap, plentiful and is not a threat to the ozone and while it's a greenhouse gas, it has a very short half life in the atmosphere. Of course those places don't use the absorption cycle opting instead for massive screw and turbine compressors. I worked for 30 years around ammonia refrigeration plants. You haven't lived until a large liquid ammonia line bursts where you are working. Dodging a flood of liquid ammonia across the floor while trying to get the emergency oxygen mask rig on is a trip.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:32 am

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jlrice54 wrote:
Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I tried to look for it, but I didn’t see it already addressed anywhere, but what would stop the introduction of an ammonia cycle refrigerator? Ammonia refrigeration was the original, and it’s still in use today because it is cost and energy efficient.


Loren Pechtel wrote:It's not energy efficient. It's just when your power source is heat the inefficiency of the ammonia cycle is less than the inefficiency of converting that heat to electricity.

I do agree it can be done within the proscriptions.


Ammonia is still the refrigerant of choice in massive industrial plants like food processing, chemical factories, etc. It's cheap, plentiful and is not a threat to the ozone and while it's a greenhouse gas, it has a very short half life in the atmosphere. Of course those places don't use the absorption cycle opting instead for massive screw and turbine compressors. I worked for 30 years around ammonia refrigeration plants. You haven't lived until a large liquid ammonia line bursts where you are working. Dodging a flood of liquid ammonia across the floor while trying to get the emergency oxygen mask rig on is a trip.


We are talking about ammonia cycle refrigeration--no compressor, just heat. The first refrigerators were ammonia cycle, but now my understanding is that it's normally only used off grid.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Silverwall   » Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:11 am

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You can also use Gas power

Either direct heat and ammonia as mentioned above with kerosene or a more sophisticated compression system using the gas engine to drive the compressor. Notably you place the engine well above the fridge in a raised separated in such a design as hot air rises.

Industrially you would use a steam engine to generate the compression for things like shipping with major advances in the 1880s

From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunedin_(ship)

In 1880 Davidson convinced the company to invest in refrigeration. Teaming up with James Galbraith of the Albion shipping company, they approached John Bell and Sons and Joseph James Coleman, who had been involved in American chilled beef shipments. As a result of negotiations, Albion agreed to refit the Dunedin with a Bell-Coleman compression refrigeration machine, cooling the entire hold. Using 3 tons of coal a day, this steam-powered machine could chill the hold to 40 °F (4 °C) below surrounding air temperature, freezing the cargo in the temperate climate of southern New Zealand, and then maintaining it beneath zero through the tropics. The Dunedin was refitted in May 1881, the most visible sign being a funnel for the refrigeration plant between her fore and main masts – sometimes leading her to be mistaken for a steamship. The refitted Dunedin arrived in Dunedin's Port Chalmers at the end of November 1881.


Not this was a full rigged ship and the only steam engine was for refrigeration purposes so there would have been no electric fittings anywhere.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Joat42   » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:38 pm

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jlrice54 wrote:You haven't lived until a large liquid ammonia line bursts where you are working. Dodging a flood of liquid ammonia across the floor while trying to get the emergency oxygen mask rig on is a trip.

That moment when you think you perhaps can take a small breath and the body just goes "nope nope nope nope" while you frantically look for the mask.

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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by jnhoback   » Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:08 pm

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Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I tried to look for it, but I didn’t see it already addressed anywhere, but what would stop the introduction of an ammonia cycle refrigerator? Ammonia refrigeration was the original, and it’s still in use today because it is cost and energy efficient.


There is also the possibility to use a Stirling cycle engine in reverse (i.e. steam powered or any other method to generate rotary motion)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicati ... ing_engine

Using the proper design, you could theoretically come close to the transition temperature where air itself becomes a liquid and in practice still get cold enough for refrigeration or even freezers.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Hildum   » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:03 pm

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During a lab experiment at school while I had a massive cold, I opened a bottle of ammonia and passed it directly under my nose as I was putting it down.. I was so congested I could not smell at all, but once I got is close to me it was amazing how fast my sinuses cleared. Don't try this at home.

I got quite the yelling at by the instructor who saw what happened.
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Re: Proscription friendly refrigeration?
Post by Morden   » Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:55 am

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They have ice houses where they ship in ice from mountains and such, it's discussed in Book 2 and a few times later on when Howsman is talking about how people will go nuts for that and air conditioning when he can wiggle it past the proscriptions. I don't believe they have much in the way of refrigeration or the Royal Palace wouldn't need to ship in large quantities of ice whilst losing a large portion of it due to it melting.
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