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Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?

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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu May 06, 2021 1:23 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
I am fairly certain that the documents preserved by the Brethren were sealed away well after that war (being an Adam, Saint Zherneau should have lived several decades after the end of the war).


Problem is, they mention nothing about the war. Which indicates, that they were most likely sealed after the destruction of Alexandria (since it was mentioned), but before the start of WAF. Otherwise at least something regarding the war would be mentioned here.


The discussion in Chapter X in the March YoG 897 section of _Hell's Foundations Quiver_ refers to Saint Zherneau's journal for accounts of Tellesberg's knowledge of the WaF (since Charis wasn't a battle zone in that war in any way, that knowledge was basically traveler stories).
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Joat42   » Thu May 06, 2021 11:25 am

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Julia Minor wrote:
mhicks wrote:I have always been curious about the tunnels that the one arch bishop used to escape. I don't remember his name or the book, but his servant helped him get though uncharted tunnels that looked like mine shafts. I always thought that they could lead to a Fallen hideout or production center. If only the inner circle was made aware of the tunnels, then OWL could send SNARKS in to investigate and map it out, looking for electronic clues and force fields etc.


Sounds like Zhasyn Cahnyr's escape in AMF, though I'm pretty sure those tunnels were specifically identified as hand-dug mine shafts. OTOH, Cahnyr also thinks that it would have been extremely difficult to have shipped the coal from that mine anywhere -- maybe it wasn't being shipped very far, just to a hidden base?

It was mostly used in the region or shipped to Zion is my guess, remember the climate and the harsh winters.

---
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by mhicks   » Fri May 07, 2021 2:31 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:


Sounds like Zhasyn Cahnyr's escape in AMF, though I'm pretty sure those tunnels were specifically identified as hand-dug mine shafts. OTOH, Cahnyr also thinks that it would have been extremely difficult to have shipped the coal from that mine anywhere -- maybe it wasn't being shipped very far, just to a hidden base?

It was mostly used in the region or shipped to Zion is my guess, remember the climate and the harsh winters.[/quote]

I guess I need to re-read the chapters because in my mind I thought the caves sounded like they were cut with a machine with square-ish walls. Maybe it was just how i was imagining it
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by WeberFan   » Fri May 07, 2021 4:25 pm

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LOTS of great ideas, and lots of additional "points to ponder" that I hadn't considered.

Seems to me that there are lots of potential hooks there, and I guess only the Mad Wizard knows if he's going to do something with them.

So Nimue's cave was buried under 12,000 meters of iron-laden mountain and was essentially in stasis. Perhaps there's another repository, containing who knows what, that's buried under a lot of iron-laden rock in the Desolation Mountains. Perhaps not 12,000 meters because David has already told us that the Mountains of Light were the highest in general, and Nimue's cave was buried under one of the highest of the highest. But a completely shielded tech base? Built to evade discovery and intended from the outset for FUTURE use? Hmmm... Maybe.

As to a site in the Barren Lands? Could be. I don't recall any textev or "hooks" the way I did with the Desolation Mountains. The tunnels under the temple that come up (what was it? 17 miles? 27 miles?) away that Clyntahn used to escape with Rayno? I personally believe that those are too recent. But that's me. The thread about the Brethern and how long they kept the journal hidden? IIRC, they were told in a letter to "keep it secret, keep it safe" by not opening the box for something like 300 years (which they then did). Khody's diary? IMHO that part of the thread is complete and doesn't lead anywhere (but I've been horrendously wrong a time or two :roll: ).

So let's speculate a bit based on my original thought: If there is a tech base tucked away in stasis under the Desolation Mountains, WHAT'S THERE?
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Joat42   » Fri May 07, 2021 4:51 pm

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WeberFan wrote:So let's speculate a bit based on my original thought: If there is a tech base tucked away in stasis under the Desolation Mountains, WHAT'S THERE?


Well, I think Nimue's cave is special because if I remember correctly it's alluded to that no one else managed to sneak away the same amount of hardware including an AI and a fabricator. And this was done before the war. If there was anything left from the war, it's most likely hardware like computers, weapons and vehicles, and perhaps some simpler machinery for fabrication.

You have to remember, if anyone was captured during the war - they could just use the NEAT's to dig into anything the prisoner knew which makes keeping secrets impossible.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Talkregh   » Fri May 14, 2021 4:36 pm

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Well, I think Nimue's cave is special because if I remember correctly it's alluded to that no one else managed to sneak away the same amount of hardware including an AI and a fabricator. And this was done before the war. If there was anything left from the war, it's most likely hardware like computers, weapons and vehicles, and perhaps some simpler machinery for fabrication
.

Hi everyone I just finished reading the while series again and dropped by, I couldn't help getting interested in this idea.

You remember correctly Nimue's Cave predates the war and even the separation or split between Kau-Yung and Shan-Wei.

The description of the equipment in the cave indicates that it was "misplaced" during the terraforming process.

We know from St Kohdy's journals that the Fallen put up a stronger resistance than previously thought and conducted guerrilla warfare against the Temple for years. It makes sense if there are hidden redoubts of varying importance, since the Fallen, hidden within the population, would have needed then for their campaign (could not strike in the open or they would have compromised their cover AND the popuñations they lived with). It would be very satisfying if there was some sort of final bolthole where we could learn the fate of Proctor, Grimaldi and the rest of the Federation personnel that resisted Chihiro and Schueler as long and as hard as they could.

Thank you for the stimulating thoughts.

Ps: Speculating a bit more, it struck me as incredibly sound if some of the Fallen knew about Nimue, when they realized they had lost the struggle it would make all the sense of the world to put together as much help for Nimue as possible even if just in the form of information. At least Proctor and Zherneau DID know so its possible some of them knew there was "another spring to her bow" even if not more than that.
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Dilandu   » Fri May 14, 2021 4:58 pm

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Talkregh wrote:
Hi everyone I just finished reading the while series again and dropped by, I couldn't help getting interested in this idea.

You remember correctly Nimue's Cave predates the war and even the separation or split between Kau-Yung and Shan-Wei.

The description of the equipment in the cave indicates that it was "misplaced" during the terraforming process.

We know from St Kohdy's journals that the Fallen put up a stronger resistance than previously thought and conducted guerrilla warfare against the Temple for years. It makes sense if there are hidden redoubts of varying importance, since the Fallen, hidden within the population, would have needed then for their campaign (could not strike in the open or they would have compromised their cover AND the popuñations they lived with). It would be very satisfying if there was some sort of final bolthole where we could learn the fate of Proctor, Grimaldi and the rest of the Federation personnel that resisted Chihiro and Schueler as long and as hard as they could.

Thank you for the stimulating thoughts.

Ps: Speculating a bit more, it struck me as incredibly sound if some of the Fallen knew about Nimue, when they realized they had lost the struggle it would make all the sense of the world to put together as much help for Nimue as possible even if just in the form of information. At least Proctor and Zherneau DID know so its possible some of them knew there was "another spring to her bow" even if not more than that.


Hello from Mother Russia, Talkregh.

I seriously doubt that. Fallen were not Shain-Wei supporters (almost all of whom died in Alexandria) Fallen were Langhorne loyalists, who rebelled against Chichiro - according to Kohdy, they suspected that Chichopiro orchestrated the destruction of Alexandria and subsequent death of command crew, to came to power himself.
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Talkregh   » Fri May 14, 2021 7:25 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Talkregh wrote:
Hi everyone I just finished reading the while series again and dropped by, I couldn't help getting interested in this idea.

You remember correctly Nimue's Cave predates the war and even the separation or split between Kau-Yung and Shan-Wei.

The description of the equipment in the cave indicates that it was "misplaced" during the terraforming process.

We know from St Kohdy's journals that the Fallen put up a stronger resistance than previously thought and conducted guerrilla warfare against the Temple for years. It makes sense if there are hidden redoubts of varying importance, since the Fallen, hidden within the population, would have needed then for their campaign (could not strike in the open or they would have compromised their cover AND the popuñations they lived with). It would be very satisfying if there was some sort of final bolthole where we could learn the fate of Proctor, Grimaldi and the rest of the Federation personnel that resisted Chihiro and Schueler as long and as hard as they could.

Thank you for the stimulating thoughts.

Ps: Speculating a bit more, it struck me as incredibly sound if some of the Fallen knew about Nimue, when they realized they had lost the struggle it would make all the sense of the world to put together as much help for Nimue as possible even if just in the form of information. At least Proctor and Zherneau DID know so its possible some of them knew there was "another spring to her bow" even if not more than that.


Hello from Mother Russia, Talkregh.

I seriously doubt that. Fallen were not Shain-Wei supporters (almost all of whom died in Alexandria) Fallen were Langhorne loyalists, who rebelled against Chichiro - according to Kohdy, they suspected that Chichopiro orchestrated the destruction of Alexandria and subsequent death of command crew, to came to power himself.


Im not saying you are wrong, since I can obviously lack info you do possess. It woukd be interesting to read how it played out.

Though I would point out to you that in Hells Foundations Quiver the spanish portions of St Kohdy's Journal produce the following text:


“For one thing, there were a lot more of the ‘Fallen’ than the Writ suggests. According to Kohdy, they weren’t so much a faction of the command crew as they were the Navy and Marine personnel who’d served as the planetary police force under Commodore Pei once their warships had been discarded. He specifically refers to them as ‘the Angels who looked to Kau-yung before his Fall,’ at least. We can’t tell how many of them there were, but Owl and I both believe there were more than the Writ ever admitted."


This paragraph identifies them as the personnel loyal to the Commodore. Taking into account that in the next paragraphs its clear Kohdy took years to suspect it was Chihiro who ordered the Alexandria strike, and only did so when a Fallen suggested it to him. It is relevant in the sense that it could not have been widespread knowledge, therefore to classify the Fallen as Langhorne Loyalists wouldnt be possible just because of timing.

But you got me thinking and Kohdy for certain would fall into that cathegory (or close to it anyway) and that he went to Schueler with his concerns and/or evidence.

"According to the Spanish portion, however, Kohdy had started to suspect that Chihiro and his closest supporters had retained Hamilcar—although Kohdy didn’t know what Hamilcar truly was; he refers to it throughout as ‘the Dawn Star’—out of his own ambition to replace and supplant Langhorne completely.”

"But from several of his comments, some oblique enough it took Owl’s analysis to tease them out of the underbrush, he’d come around—slowly and unwillingly—to the belief that Chihiro was … significantly modifying Langhorne’s original plan. That’s the reason he went to Schueler.”

"They’d been friends, and when his friend told him he was on the wrong side and provided evidence to support the allegation, it shook Kohdy’s faith. Badly.” “Badly enough to send him to Schueler for an answer or reassurance,” Merlin murmured."


I cant help but wonder if we got Schueler wrong. We know someone diverted industrial capacity to the Fallen after the Alexandria strike, someome on the command crew side. What if HE was a Langhorne Loyalist and confronted Chihiro and died too? Afterall I cant remember any references about how he died. The punishment of Schueler could literally be named because of what was done TO him rather than created by him. There could very well be Langhorne Loyalists what I have difficulty getting through my head is them switching sides and being accepted by the fallen.

All knowledge of this could be in our speculated Fallen Citadel. I agree the places where it makes more sense for it to be are the Desolation Mountains and the Barren Lands. The mountain range is seriously enormous, and the Barren Lands are far away from Zion and sparsely populated. The problem I see with the Barren Lands is that reaching them under Hamilcars observation would have been risky.
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Louis R   » Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 pm

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I think Dilandu is classing the Fallen as Langhorne Loyalists on the not unreasonable assumption that if they _weren't_ they'd have been in Alexandria when it was destroyed, or eliminated shortly thereafter. Don't forget that Kau-yung was ostensibly a loyalist; it's unlikely that more than a very, very few of those working for him were not in favour of the order they were supporting. Proctor, Grimaldi and the other 'fallen' archangels were probably part of Shan Wei's crew and would have been in Alexandria - not even Langhorne would have bought the idea of all her senior personnel siding with him when apparently he never really believed that Kau-yung did. Come to think of it, we don't actually know for sure that all the 'good' archangels really were on Langhorne's side - their Books may be no more authentic than Schueler's seems to have been.

As for Schueler, you may not have seen the comment from Himself to the effect that he was the one who realised what the proto-Fallen were cooking up, and shopped them to Chihiro before they were ready to rumble. While he may not have been a Chihiro loyalist, in the end, he most certainly was a Langhornist. I think that remark is in the FAQs

Talkregh wrote:
Im not saying you are wrong, since I can obviously lack info you do possess. It woukd be interesting to read how it played out.

Though I would point out to you that in Hells Foundations Quiver the spanish portions of St Kohdy's Journal produce the following text:


“For one thing, there were a lot more of the ‘Fallen’ than the Writ suggests. According to Kohdy, they weren’t so much a faction of the command crew as they were the Navy and Marine personnel who’d served as the planetary police force under Commodore Pei once their warships had been discarded. He specifically refers to them as ‘the Angels who looked to Kau-yung before his Fall,’ at least. We can’t tell how many of them there were, but Owl and I both believe there were more than the Writ ever admitted."


This paragraph identifies them as the personnel loyal to the Commodore. Taking into account that in the next paragraphs its clear Kohdy took years to suspect it was Chihiro who ordered the Alexandria strike, and only did so when a Fallen suggested it to him. It is relevant in the sense that it could not have been widespread knowledge, therefore to classify the Fallen as Langhorne Loyalists wouldnt be possible just because of timing.

But you got me thinking and Kohdy for certain would fall into that cathegory (or close to it anyway) and that he went to Schueler with his concerns and/or evidence.

"According to the Spanish portion, however, Kohdy had started to suspect that Chihiro and his closest supporters had retained Hamilcar—although Kohdy didn’t know what Hamilcar truly was; he refers to it throughout as ‘the Dawn Star’—out of his own ambition to replace and supplant Langhorne completely.”

"But from several of his comments, some oblique enough it took Owl’s analysis to tease them out of the underbrush, he’d come around—slowly and unwillingly—to the belief that Chihiro was … significantly modifying Langhorne’s original plan. That’s the reason he went to Schueler.”

"They’d been friends, and when his friend told him he was on the wrong side and provided evidence to support the allegation, it shook Kohdy’s faith. Badly.” “Badly enough to send him to Schueler for an answer or reassurance,” Merlin murmured."


I cant help but wonder if we got Schueler wrong. We know someone diverted industrial capacity to the Fallen after the Alexandria strike, someome on the command crew side. What if HE was a Langhorne Loyalist and confronted Chihiro and died too? Afterall I cant remember any references about how he died. The punishment of Schueler could literally be named because of what was done TO him rather than created by him. There could very well be Langhorne Loyalists what I have difficulty getting through my head is them switching sides and being accepted by the fallen.

All knowledge of this could be in our speculated Fallen Citadel. I agree the places where it makes more sense for it to be are the Desolation Mountains and the Barren Lands. The mountain range is seriously enormous, and the Barren Lands are far away from Zion and sparsely populated. The problem I see with the Barren Lands is that reaching them under Hamilcars observation would have been risky.
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Re: Undiscovered Fallen Citadel in the Desolation Mountains?
Post by Talkregh   » Sun May 16, 2021 9:29 am

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Don't forget that Kau-yung was ostensibly a loyalist


Until Armaggedon Reef, theres no "ism" involved just different factions. After the Alexandria strike Kau Yung uses a nuke AND his units plan an insurgency to the degree the Temple uses Adams and Eves as Seijin, meaning they couldnt use those units meaning not enough of them had stayed loyal.

Proctor, Grimaldi and the other 'fallen' archangels were probably part of Shan Wei's crew and would have been in Alexandria - not even Langhorne would have bought the idea of all her senior personnel siding with him when apparently he never really believed that Kau-yung did. Come to think of it, we don't actually know for sure that all the 'good' archangels really were on Langhorne's side - their Books may be no more authentic than Schueler's seems to have been.


We do know the inquisition has secret files that detail actions by at least Grimaldi during the War. And thats the point about Schueler isnt it? We know theres a discrepancy between the Schueler in the messages and the Schueler that produces his book. We know the Writ and Langhornes plan gets substantially modified by Chihiro, we just dont have enough to link the data in a cohesive narrative.

I dont think the current data supports Kau Yungs units as Langhorne loyalists, and if they werent and they had some industrial capacity the Fallen Citadel theory has merit and more importantly, makes sense.
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