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What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?

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What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by clancy688   » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:51 am

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Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm possibly triggering a landmine here. But I think the point needs to be adressed.

What does the writ say about homosexuality? What does it say about transgender issues?

In the books there's zero mention of homosexual or transgendered characters, which is in line with DW's other works. However, that can't be the actual reality on Safehold, I think we can all agree on that. So how does the writ (and therefore the society?) perceive these people? Are they accepted? Or are they regarded as traitors to God (the usual "God made you a man/woman for a reason, don't profane His choice" argument).

And even more interesting: How do the main characters (aside from Nimue and Merlin) regard homosexuality, given that they grew up on Safehold? Maikel or Sharleyan for example. Are they tolerant? Or abhorred?

And yes, I'm aware that Merlin technically is transgender, but imho he's a different kettle of fish.


Personally I think that the archangels must have accounted for this, and the smartest choice would have been to not penalize it. I.e. make all things LGBT perfectly acceptable in the writ. But if so, it's still a bit worrisome that there's not a peep about this in the books...
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Cartref   » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:57 pm

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I don't see a need for this to be canvased. Most books that are written don't get into discussions like these.

It is a fantasy universe not a refection of reality.
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:16 am

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clancy688 wrote:Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm possibly triggering a landmine here. But I think the point needs to be adressed.

What does the writ say about homosexuality? What does it say about transgender issues?

In the books there's zero mention of homosexual or transgendered characters, which is in line with DW's other works. However, that can't be the actual reality on Safehold, I think we can all agree on that. So how does the writ (and therefore the society?) perceive these people? Are they accepted? Or are they regarded as traitors to God (the usual "God made you a man/woman for a reason, don't profane His choice" argument).

And even more interesting: How do the main characters (aside from Nimue and Merlin) regard homosexuality, given that they grew up on Safehold? Maikel or Sharleyan for example. Are they tolerant? Or abhorred?

And yes, I'm aware that Merlin technically is transgender, but imho he's a different kettle of fish.


Personally I think that the archangels must have accounted for this, and the smartest choice would have been to not penalize it. I.e. make all things LGBT perfectly acceptable in the writ. But if so, it's still a bit worrisome that there's not a peep about this in the books...


RFC stated, that Writ does not penalise homosexuality in any way, but some secular regimes on Safehold came to frown on it.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9650&p=269694&hilit=transgender#p269694
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by clancy688   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:26 am

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Dilandu wrote:RFC stated, that Writ does not penalise homosexuality in any way, but some secular regimes on Safehold came to frown on it.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9650&p=269694&hilit=transgender#p269694


Ah, great catch, thanks for mentioning! :)

That does make a lot of sense imho. Especially the "be fruitful and multiply" thingy was something which I thought might produce problems for homosexual folks.

So no prohibitions in the writ (same as in the bible I guess), but society might develop a dislike on their own.
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Daryl   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:04 am

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Clancy688. In regard to "which is in line with DW's other works", I would mention that Honor ends up in a menage a trois, with Emily fancying her if she was physically able to act on it.
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by clancy688   » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:22 am

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To be honest, I always viewed that relationship as purely platonic, regardless of Emily's condition.

To me it appeared more like "Two women sharing the same lover" instead of a menage a trois. For example I don't think Honor ever kissed Emily on the lips (correct me if I'm wrong pls, my last Honor reread has been a view years ago!), something which should still be well possible for her, and which I'd expected if their really were romantic feelings involved between the two. Deep affection and love, yes. Romantic as in desires of the flesh? No.

But that's just my take. :)
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:05 am

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clancy688 wrote:
Dilandu wrote:RFC stated, that Writ does not penalise homosexuality in any way, but some secular regimes on Safehold came to frown on it.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9650&p=269694&hilit=transgender#p269694


Ah, great catch, thanks for mentioning! :)

That does make a lot of sense imho. Especially the "be fruitful and multiply" thingy was something which I thought might produce problems for homosexual folks.

So no prohibitions in the writ (same as in the bible I guess), but society might develop a dislike on their own.


Essentially yes. Let's not forget, the Langhorne's Writ purpose is NOT to annoy peoples for no reason. Its purpose is to create a society as stable as possible, and this by definition means avoiding stepping on people's toes as much as possible.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:31 pm

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The RMN Admiral who is in charge of sorting out Manticore's portion of Silesia has a. I think we are give his name at least once.

Allison -in teasing Honor- or at least somebody, talks about same sex lovers.....but then Beowulf is kind of well known for not being in any way straight laced. :)

RFC does't make this any sort of major part of the story lines though you can find a couple of references.
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Louis R   » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:22 pm

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Looks like you mislaid a husband at the end of your first sentence.

And TTBOMK we haven't met Mr Sarnow.


Himself spoke about this - indirectly, at least - during his klatch with Ursus. Things like this are very clear to him as he builds the character, although I didn't have any sense that he set quotas, but unless they're relevant to the story they're not often brought up. So we're not given any idea that Mark Sarnow is married to another man, but are told about Showforth: her leanings help to set the frame for Steilman's little gang. By that token, we'll hear about it on Safehold only to the degree that it is needed to advance the story there.


Brigade XO wrote:The RMN Admiral who is in charge of sorting out Manticore's portion of Silesia has a. I think we are give his name at least once.

Allison -in teasing Honor- or at least somebody, talks about same sex lovers.....but then Beowulf is kind of well known for not being in any way straight laced. :)

RFC does't make this any sort of major part of the story lines though you can find a couple of references.
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Re: What does the writ say about sexuality and gender?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:02 pm

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Cartref wrote:I don't see a need for this to be canvased. Most books that are written don't get into discussions like these.

It is a fantasy universe not a refection of reality.


I don't see that Safehold tech could do much for trans people. It would be no more than cross dressing.

That being said, there isn't really any reason for the book to go into it. Family structures rarely appear outside the power structure and there you need heirs--you couldn't be openly homosexual.
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