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"Testimony of Schueler" Redux

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:07 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
mhicks wrote:Sorry, yes I meant the Brethren of Saint Zherneau. I have a bad memory and I am Dyslexic so reading this series is murder, but I do love it.


BTW what is the conventional equivalent of 'Zherneau'?


According to chapter VI of the June 892 YoG section of _By Schism Rent Asunder_, his name was Jeremiah.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by emeye   » Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:21 pm

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There is a (French?) name Gernot, which would sound the same.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
BTW what is the conventional equivalent of 'Zherneau'?


According to chapter VI of the June 892 YoG section of _By Schism Rent Asunder_, his name was Jeremiah.
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by Louis R   » Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:09 am

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Specifically, Jeremiah Knowles. I've always taken it as a contraction of Jerry Knowles

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
BTW what is the conventional equivalent of 'Zherneau'?


According to chapter VI of the June 892 YoG section of _By Schism Rent Asunder_, his name was Jeremiah.
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:08 pm

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The key element for me as it relates to this question has always been what Scheuler left for his descendants. He left them a relic so that they would try to keep the CoGA on the straight and narrow. He wouldn't have done this if he believed that Langhorne and Bedard's adjustment to the original plan was sufficient to ensure humanity's safety. Even after the War Against the Fallen, if he believed the CoGA had sufficient control over Safeholdians, he would NOT have interfered. Yet he did.

He interfered first with The Key. That relic left a message and a tool to radically alter the CoGA. So he knew that it was possible that the CoGA could face some sort of existential threat even after the Demons/Fallen were destroyed. It follows that Schueler was NOT a believer in the CoGA was sufficient to keep humanity from fighting each other in the fullness of time. I strongly believe that the war Against the Fallen and his interactions with Seijin Khody pushed him to the conclusion that Shan Wei was right all along. That humanity's thirst for knowledge and control of their environment would push them into conflict with the CoGA eventually. Furthermore, that drive would push common citizens into conflict with those of their rulers who exercised their power too repressively and deny those subjects sufficient control to quench that thirst to control their environment.

If this is as I assert, then Schueler might have realized that giving humanity both a reason to direct their aggression outside humanity and to shy away from technology that was too revealing to the Gbaba was the safest way to ensure humanity could survive. The message in the Key he left the Wylsyns attempted to keep the CoGA from becoming too repressive. The Visitation begins to take up the challenge of focusing humanity on an outside threat that actually exists.

The only missing pieces that I see is some sort of active agent that can refine the necessary alterations to whatever needs to be done to ensure his will comes to pass. He planted one line of active agents to keep the CoGA in check. Why wouldn't he plant a second line of active agents to ensure his second prong? I assert that he did so in the SSK.

So far the goals of the SSK, the Brotherhood and Merlin/Nimue have aligned. There is no need for the SSK to come clean to or counter Nimue and the Brotherhood. Just because their goals have aligned does not mean those goals will continue to align. Case in point the desire not to lie to Safeholdians. I can see the SSK viewing the creation or tweaking of the Visitation as a net plus to their goals while Merlin et al would not. Nynyan might well act independently to trigger the Visitation without informing Merlin while honestly believing she hasn't betrayed either him or her loyalty to the goals of the SSK.

I am not sure that's what's going on, but this scenario is a heck of a lot less complex than others as well as not betraying the internal consistency of the character's motivations. I grant that [personalities can be inconsistent. I do not grant that RFC is such a horrible writer that he would use such inconsistencies without sufficient foreshadowing. That Operation Androcles is responsible for the Visitation sort of falls into that latter scenario.
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by ocry   » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:48 am

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In the latest videos posted on The Weberverse YouTube channel David mentions this while talking about what will be happening in the next book and the rest of the Safehold arc. If I heard him correctly he seems to confirm that the Schueler visitation was a product of Nahrman, et al as a way to force the Church of God Awakening to come to grips with the truth of The Writ.

I highly recommend that if you haven't listened to this channel to do so as David spends a lot of time discussing his various series in some detail. He has several with Jacob Holo sitting with him talking about the Gordian Protocol series and how David handles collaborations but he touches bases on all series giving more in depth information and indications on where they are going.

The ones dealing with this topic are:

Safehold Series Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY5TA2HzFhE

Safehold Series Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxX43sdNfWU&t=136s
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by cnrd22   » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:37 am

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ocry wrote:In the latest videos posted on The Weberverse YouTube channel David mentions this while talking about what will be happening in the next book and the rest of the Safehold arc. If I heard him correctly he seems to confirm that the Schueler visitation was a product of Nahrman, et al as a way to force the Church of God Awakening to come to grips with the truth of The Writ.



Very informative and with a few tidbits (more or less what was implied at the end of TFT) that the next war will start when Protector Zhermo - whom DW said is yet unsure if to portray as Hitler or Mussolini, so, in other words, a dangerous fanatic or a self-important buffoon - will invade either Dohlar or Silkiah or both after Dohlar takes over Siddamark's slice of the canal building. South Harchong and Desnair get into the mix too.

At that point - something like a year or so after the Nahrmann produced "revelation" at the end of TFT - DW is fairly explicit about it being Narhmann - The Church is absorbing it and having internal conflicts, but all seems to be well, quiet, going towards a peaceful resolution, but this being a DW book, of course, things explode and the book ends in a messy place...

Charis starts the war with a military advantage for once but at a geographical disadvantage and then at some point, religious controversy goes back into the mix, while there was some clear mention about the importance of the much more stuff under the Temple than Merlin et co have believed until his visit there

Sadly it's likely the book will be early 2022 at best
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:58 pm

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Suggestive as hell is more like it. I need to see just how Nahrmahn approaches creating the Visitation before I make my final judgement. My initial judgement is not very positive. Not positive at all. Concepts such as cheating and inconsistent come to mind. Two concepts very much related to one another in this context.

We'll see how it shakes out.

ocry wrote:In the latest videos posted on The Weberverse YouTube channel David mentions this while talking about what will be happening in the next book and the rest of the Safehold arc. If I heard him correctly he seems to confirm that the Schueler visitation was a product of Nahrman, et al as a way to force the Church of God Awakening to come to grips with the truth of The Writ.

I highly recommend that if you haven't listened to this channel to do so as David spends a lot of time discussing his various series in some detail. He has several with Jacob Holo sitting with him talking about the Gordian Protocol series and how David handles collaborations but he touches bases on all series giving more in depth information and indications on where they are going.

The ones dealing with this topic are:

Safehold Series Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY5TA2HzFhE

Safehold Series Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxX43sdNfWU&t=136s
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by Joat42   » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:01 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Suggestive as hell is more like it. I need to see just how Nahrmahn approaches creating the Visitation before I make my final judgement. My initial judgement is not very positive. Not positive at all. Concepts such as cheating and inconsistent come to mind. Two concepts very much related to one another in this context.

We'll see how it shakes out.

Remember that Owl has a copy of the original writ before Chihiro meddled, and giving the Church that copy isn't cheating per se and any inconsistences is entirely due to Chihiro.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:50 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Suggestive as hell is more like it. I need to see just how Nahrmahn approaches creating the Visitation before I make my final judgement. My initial judgement is not very positive. Not positive at all. Concepts such as cheating and inconsistent come to mind. Two concepts very much related to one another in this context.

We'll see how it shakes out.
Joat42 wrote:Remember that Owl has a copy of the original writ before Chihiro meddled, and giving the Church that copy isn't cheating per se and any inconsistences is entirely due to Chihiro.

I am not unhappy with Schueler's message in the visitation. I am unhappy that Nahrmahn and Owl apparently manufactured the imagery and the Testament of Schueler. These vehicles might contain the truth, but they are NOT products of Schueler. If that comes out when the Return manifest, they lose credibility with Safeholdians in any argument with those awakening.

Even if Charis uses their allotted time to secure their technological superiority over the Temple, they risk losing the moral argument because they also lied.
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Re: "Testimony of Schueler" Redux
Post by Joat42   » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:21 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Suggestive as hell is more like it. I need to see just how Nahrmahn approaches creating the Visitation before I make my final judgement. My initial judgement is not very positive. Not positive at all. Concepts such as cheating and inconsistent come to mind. Two concepts very much related to one another in this context.

We'll see how it shakes out.
Joat42 wrote:Remember that Owl has a copy of the original writ before Chihiro meddled, and giving the Church that copy isn't cheating per se and any inconsistences is entirely due to Chihiro.

I am not unhappy with Schueler's message in the visitation. I am unhappy that Nahrmahn and Owl apparently manufactured the imagery and the Testament of Schueler. These vehicles might contain the truth, but they are NOT products of Schueler. If that comes out when the Return manifest, they lose credibility with Safeholdians in any argument with those awakening.

Even if Charis uses their allotted time to secure their technological superiority over the Temple, they risk losing the moral argument because they also lied.

The imagery was manufactured, but the content of the Testament of Schueler is most likely the original one which also means it is a product of Schueler.

And the first window of the return has already passed, so this version of the testament will have up to 70 years to take root, which considering the upheaval the church just went through will go a lot easier now (no inquisition).

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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