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Why Schueller?

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Why Schueller?
Post by Kino   » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:14 pm

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The last chapter of the latest book shows us Schueller making an appearance near the temple. I gather that we have Writ from the Archangel Weber (or YouTube interviews anyway) that "Schueller" was actually Nahrman and Owl playing games with holographic projectors. I might have missed this, but do we know why they picked Schueller particularly?

I can see you might pick him. As the patron of the Inquisition, it's plausible that Langhorne would send him to pass on a serious message about doctrinal problems. Also we've got at least one source (the Wylsynn's stone) that says something about him returning in a thousand years, so if someone else has another copy of that stuffed down the back of the sofa (suppressed in the Church archives somewhere?) you're playing into that.

On the other hand, we've already got two ancient conspiracies (the Wylsynns and Seijin Kohdy's people) associated with the man, and our heroes missed the existence of Nynian's people despite being in direct personal contact with her. That would make me worry that there's other stuff about the man lying around that might come back to bite. Given that there seems to be more mystery around what Schueller was really up to than any of the other archangels, why not pick someone we have fewer questions about? I can see why you don't want to use Langhorne to deliver the message, because his biggest and shiniest church is the Temple, and our heroes don't want to mess around in there. But why not almost anybody else? Bedard, for example.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by Louis R   » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:28 am

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Almost certainly, because of the Stone.

There are two possibilities, or rather classes of possibility: first, the Apparition is 'genuine', and in some way Schueler or a recording of same is involved in creating it. In which case Nahrmahn and, presumably, Owl played some role in making it happen by working on or with the Stone.

The second is that Narhmahn made it up out of whole cloth, in which case they would have needed to use the recorded images and voice on the Stone as a template. That is the only post-War recording they have access to, but they have to allow for the possibility - or actually know - of recordings in the Temple that would be used to verify the Apparition. They would have, at least, to match an image on public display in the sanctuary and there may not be any in Owl's database for the other archangels that are usable.


Kino wrote:The last chapter of the latest book shows us Schueller making an appearance near the temple. I gather that we have Writ from the Archangel Weber (or YouTube interviews anyway) that "Schueller" was actually Nahrman and Owl playing games with holographic projectors. I might have missed this, but do we know why they picked Schueller particularly?

I can see you might pick him. As the patron of the Inquisition, it's plausible that Langhorne would send him to pass on a serious message about doctrinal problems. Also we've got at least one source (the Wylsynn's stone) that says something about him returning in a thousand years, so if someone else has another copy of that stuffed down the back of the sofa (suppressed in the Church archives somewhere?) you're playing into that.

On the other hand, we've already got two ancient conspiracies (the Wylsynns and Seijin Kohdy's people) associated with the man, and our heroes missed the existence of Nynian's people despite being in direct personal contact with her. That would make me worry that there's other stuff about the man lying around that might come back to bite. Given that there seems to be more mystery around what Schueller was really up to than any of the other archangels, why not pick someone we have fewer questions about? I can see why you don't want to use Langhorne to deliver the message, because his biggest and shiniest church is the Temple, and our heroes don't want to mess around in there. But why not almost anybody else? Bedard, for example.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:28 am

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Kino wrote:The last chapter of the latest book shows us Schueller making an appearance near the temple. I gather that we have Writ from the Archangel Weber (or YouTube interviews anyway) that "Schueller" was actually Nahrman and Owl playing games with holographic projectors. SNIP

Any thoughts?


I'd be very interested if you could point us in that direction of that interview.

We had looooong discussions here around that precise topic - with good arguments on both sides! I never resolved the problem to my satisfaction.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by Kino   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:53 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
Kino wrote:The last chapter of the latest book shows us Schueller making an appearance near the temple. I gather that we have Writ from the Archangel Weber (or YouTube interviews anyway) that "Schueller" was actually Nahrman and Owl playing games with holographic projectors. SNIP

Any thoughts?


I'd be very interested if you could point us in that direction of that interview.

There's a post in these very forums linking to YouTube interviews where he apparently says it - I must admit I only read the bullet list Jeslis provided, so I guess YMMV.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by Kino   » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:03 pm

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Louis R wrote:Almost certainly, because of the Stone.

There are two possibilities, or rather classes of possibility: first, the Apparition is 'genuine', and in some way Schueler or a recording of same is involved in creating it. In which case Nahrmahn and, presumably, Owl played some role in making it happen by working on or with the Stone.

The second is that Narhmahn made it up out of whole cloth, in which case they would have needed to use the recorded images and voice on the Stone as a template. That is the only post-War recording they have access to, but they have to allow for the possibility - or actually know - of recordings in the Temple that would be used to verify the Apparition. They would have, at least, to match an image on public display in the sanctuary and there may not be any in Owl's database for the other archangels that are usable.

That makes sense - they have to use Schueler (whose name I can now spell!) because he's the one they can best fake in case there are other recordings of him they aren't aware of. And, in fact, we know there are recordings of at least some of the Archangels available in the Temple, to which Nahrmahn (whose name I can also now spell!) and Owl presumably don't have direct access, because Clyntahn's POV segment just before his execution notes that he recognises the Archangels when Merlin and Nymue show him a recording of them in a committee meeting. Our heroes may not know what recordings there are, but that there are some is reasonable speculation that they'd be wise to factor into their plans.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:17 am

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Kino wrote:That makes sense - they have to use Schueler (whose name I can now spell!) because he's the one they can best fake in case there are other recordings of him they aren't aware of. And, in fact, we know there are recordings of at least some of the Archangels available in the Temple, to which Nahrmahn (whose name I can also now spell!) and Owl presumably don't have direct access, because Clyntahn's POV segment just before his execution notes that he recognises the Archangels when Merlin and Nymue show him a recording of them in a committee meeting. Our heroes may not know what recordings there are, but that there are some is reasonable speculation that they'd be wise to factor into their plans.


You are likely right. Howevever in addition to that I can think of two more reasons:

- Schueler seems to have had a more differentiated position than the church officially acknowledged. So him leaving some sort of secret 'plot' may be more believable to church authorities (if they have in fact access to records that is which we don't know) than one of the other 'archangels'. Narmahn's little invention may even inspire the current church leadership to look into their records and find - things they wish they didn't.

- ontop of that if Schueler has been (possibly wrongly) portrayed as a 'hardline' archangel by the church, him 'switching sides' so to speak is an especially hard blow.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by lightningstar519   » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:18 am

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Kino wrote:The last chapter of the latest book shows us Schueller making an appearance near the temple. I gather that we have Writ from the Archangel Weber (or YouTube interviews anyway) that "Schueller" was actually Nahrman and Owl playing games with holographic projectors. I might have missed this, but do we know why they picked Schueller particularly?


God, I hope that it doesn't turn out to be Nahrmann and OWL. It would really be a letdown. I find the idea that Schueler might be a secret double agent much more entertaining than a deepfake by Charis-allied AI.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by Crancy   » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:23 am

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I am sure others have a better memory going back to the earlier books, so this idea may not pan out. I think that the initial indication will be that Narman and Owl are responsible for this particular apparition. However, the twist will come when we find out that, in fact, Schueller was a "Double Agent". There have been a couple of times when occurrences in the past did not quite fit the enforcer of the writ. If memory serves me properly, weren't the Wislynns the beneficiaries of the truth rod (forgot its name, and how to spell Wyslinns). They were Schullerites from early on, and it would be major reason why they could go undetected for so long. Even if wrong about the truth rod thingy, it would be an interesting twist.
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Re: Why Schueller?
Post by jtg452   » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:44 pm

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Shueler is the personification of the Inquisition and the enforcement arm of the Church.

What's the psychological impact of him appearing when he did and saying what he said going to be on the truly devout of the Church?

He-the semi-divine archangel and defender of orthodoxy- didn't choose to appear during the war with Charis- even though it was a war to prevent what the Church had declared a heretical schism from rising.

So why now?

Nahrman and Owl's little light show is going to have a tremendous impact globally.

Narhman isn't playing games. This is the opening gambit of the next phase in the war against the Church dominance of Safehold. They've fought with guns and swords,now they are after hearts and minds.
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