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Artillery Effectiveness?

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:17 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:Arcania is set to find out -- via Shaylar's talent fade out -- but not soon enough to save the Hell's Gate universe for Magic.

This thought -- magic losing Hell's Gate -- is based upon Sharonan rail logistics staying intact to Hell's Gate and Arcania still being dragon limited for so many, many, universes.

The Arcanians can send further, bigger pulses of Dragon armed forces to Hell's Gate, but the manifest superiority of rail lift over dragon lift over time puts Hell's Gate "A Universe To Far".



I agree. But I also think that much beyond Hell's gate toward Arcana will prove "A universe too far" for Sharona, given the reality of logistics at current tech levels.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:53 am

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I think I disagree that Sharona can't advance much beyond Hell's Gate. Assuming Arcana doesn't manage to effectively interfere (yes that is a big assumption but given how little we know about Arcanan capabilities and strategies I don't see any way to account for that in this speculation) and chan Geraith is right about Sharonan railroad building capabliites I think Sharona can meet the following schedule.

Double track railroad to Hell's Gate within 9 months. From their they will build up a major city in Hell's Gate very quickly. For how fast, take a look at the movement of Russian industry from West to East of the Urals during World War II. I expect massive military production, in a city with millions of residents, to be taking place there within two years. Even before large scale production starts in Hell's Gate it will be a massive supply depot.

At that point the question isn't how far from Sharona can Sharona support an army but how far from Hell's Gate can Sharona support an army? We know the answer to that is measured in the tens of thousands of miles.

Nicholas
n7axw wrote:
I agree. But I also think that much beyond Hell's gate toward Arcana will prove "A universe too far" for Sharona, given the reality of logistics at current tech levels.

Don
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by Louis R   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:51 pm

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Don't forget that the Swamp Portal out of Hell's Gate represents a major logistic problem for both sides. One that Arcana actually has the edge on at the moment: they have a 'water-proof' heavy lift capacity immediately available, where Sharona doesn't. If I'm correct in thinking that the swamp in question is the Amazon Basin, it's not going to be nearly the impediment that the Arcanans probably think it is, but it's still going to be a royal pain. Sharona will have to build track from the portal to the nearest major branch of the river, and unless they're very lucky there will be many miles of terrain needing 20-30 feet of fill to keep the track stable and above high water. That's engineering on a par with the Traisum cut - if rather less spectacular - but the Sharonans have already demonstrated that they are up to it. Even assuming that they have complete control of the area and can work unimpeded, however, I'd not be surprised if it took a year after the railhead reaches Hell's Gate before they could get boats on the river and reach the sea. And they won't be unimpeded, because in the mean time the Arcanans can fly what they need [or what they have available, at any rate] into whatever operations bases they set up outside the reach of Sharona's guns.

Down in the mud, again Arcana has the edge - as long as they have enough accumulators - in moving men and equipment. Sharona, OTOH, probably has the better kit when they can get it where they need it.

All in all, even should Sharona gain uncontested control of Hell's Gate, something I'm _not_ betting on, breaking out of it will be a slow, messy process.

brnicholas wrote:I think I disagree that Sharona can't advance much beyond Hell's Gate. Assuming Arcana doesn't manage to effectively interfere (yes that is a big assumption but given how little we know about Arcanan capabilities and strategies I don't see any way to account for that in this speculation) and chan Geraith is right about Sharonan railroad building capabliites I think Sharona can meet the following schedule.

Double track railroad to Hell's Gate within 9 months. From their they will build up a major city in Hell's Gate very quickly. For how fast, take a look at the movement of Russian industry from West to East of the Urals during World War II. I expect massive military production, in a city with millions of residents, to be taking place there within two years. Even before large scale production starts in Hell's Gate it will be a massive supply depot.

At that point the question isn't how far from Sharona can Sharona support an army but how far from Hell's Gate can Sharona support an army? We know the answer to that is measured in the tens of thousands of miles.

Nicholas
n7axw wrote:
I agree. But I also think that much beyond Hell's gate toward Arcana will prove "A universe too far" for Sharona, given the reality of logistics at current tech levels.

Don
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:16 pm

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What I'm challenging here is the notion of supplying a major army with heavy forces over multiple 10s of thousands of miles... with stream power.

We have nothing in our own timeline that even remotely compares with this. The maximim distance we have here is about 12000 miles not counting such things as detours around the horn or the tip of SA.

FROM Shaoma to Arcana is close to 150,000 miles. I don't think it works for either side without significant tech advances.

Of course, if you are talking about developing major industrial capabibility in universes closer to the front, that becomes a new discussion sinse the sourse of supply would be that much closer to the front. That has rather obvious risks of its own, however.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:21 pm

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That is exactly what I am talking about and while it does have obvious risks my read of the current Sharonan political situation is that they will judge the risks of leaving Arcana unoccupied much much worse then the risks of building major cities a couple of universes from the front.

Nicholas

n7axw wrote:...snipped...
Of course, if you are talking about developing major industrial capabibility in universes closer to the front, that becomes a new discussion sinse the sourse of supply would be that much closer to the front. That has rather obvious risks of its own, however.

Don
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by Castenea   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:13 pm

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brnicholas wrote:That is exactly what I am talking about and while it does have obvious risks my read of the current Sharonan political situation is that they will judge the risks of leaving Arcana unoccupied much much worse then the risks of building major cities a couple of universes from the front.

Nicholas


I expect that for the next two years, munitions and other heavy expendables will not be produced any closer to the front than Ft Salby. Food and fuel I do expect to be pushed closer to the front, especially if the front stabilizes. This is due to the time to build a factory, and the relative bulk of many types of fuel and nearly all types of food.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:53 pm

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brnicholas wrote:That is exactly what I am talking about and while it does have obvious risks my read of the current Sharonan political situation is that they will judge the risks of leaving Arcana unoccupied much much worse then the risks of building major cities a couple of universes from the front.

Nicholas



It is true that Sharona's deeply angry right now, and for good reason. But the political situation will change and become more pragmatic and less emotional as time goes on.

I don't believe Sharona will be able to occupy Arcana and they would be unwise to try.

My own visualization is that the plot of mul Gurthak and his co-conspirators will be exposed and discredited after which what actually happened at Fallen Timbers will become widely known on Arcana. As the war settles into a stalemate, it will open the path for Shaylar and Jathmar to return to Sharona with a delegation of fully credentialed diplomats to serve as peacemakers.

The Hell's gate portial is still about 100,000 miles from Arcana. Even if you have industrial infrastructure in that area, it's still a l-o-o-o-ng way to Arcana.



Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:24 pm

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Sharonans will need to grow food close to the front.
NOTE that the Route from Salym through Traisum to
Kelsayr goes through Eygpt, the Best Breadbasket in all
the worlds, and the Route to Karys is just across the
Red (Finger) Sea from it.

Map-addict Prediction:
Traisum-Egypt will be made into a Major Food-Growing Center!

HTM

Castenea wrote:
I expect that for the next two years, munitions and
other heavy expendables will not be produced any closer
to the front than Ft Salby. Food and fuel I do expect
to be pushed closer to the front, especially if
the front stabilizes. This is due to the time to
build a factory, and the relative bulk of many types
of fuel and nearly all types of food.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by phillies   » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:28 pm

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It seems to me that water transport is the answer, rather than trying to run through rail tracks, at least in the short run.

Louis R wrote:Don't forget that the Swamp Portal out of Hell's Gate represents a major logistic problem for both sides. One that Arcana actually has the edge on at the moment: they have a 'water-proof' heavy lift capacity immediately available, where Sharona doesn't. If I'm correct in thinking that the swamp in question is the Amazon Basin, it's not going to be nearly the impediment that the Arcanans probably think it is, but it's still going to be a royal pain. Sharona will have to build track from the portal to the nearest major branch of the river, and unless they're very lucky there will be many miles of terrain needing 20-30 feet of fill to keep the track stable and above high water. That's engineering on a par with the Traisum cut - if rather less spectacular - but the Sharonans have already demonstrated that they are up to it. Even assuming that they have complete control of the area and can work unimpeded, however, I'd not be surprised if it took a year after the railhead reaches Hell's Gate before they could get boats on the river and reach the sea. And they won't be unimpeded, because in the mean time the Arcanans can fly what they need [or what they have available, at any rate] into whatever operations bases they set up outside the reach of Sharona's guns.

Down in the mud, again Arcana has the edge - as long as they have enough accumulators - in moving men and equipment. Sharona, OTOH, probably has the better kit when they can get it where they need it.

All in all, even should Sharona gain uncontested control of Hell's Gate, something I'm _not_ betting on, breaking out of it will be a slow, messy process.
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Re: Artillery Effectiveness?
Post by Louis R   » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:30 am

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If you happen to have 50,000 men with dugouts, it should work. During the rainy season, at least. Dry season, you may not have enough standing water to float something with more draught than a rubber duck - but still have 5 feet of muck under it between the tree roots.

The problem is that we have no idea where the portal is WRT a deep, _permanent_ channel, and that's what is needed for water transport in the kiloton range. We do know that there's a lot of water with trees in it. _If_ that translates to bedrock close to the surface - the ideal situation - rail is actually the best way to get your freight to deep water. Or at least to the edge of that patch of rock. The gotcha is that you could run out of bedrock before you run into a channel. At which point you start with the fancy engineering, and what sort of engineering depends on what's between where you are and where you have to go. I'm not sure that even today we could just pull out a map and say "here's the portal. run a road along this route, put in a port _here_, and dredge out to the river from there." I am sure the Sharonan's couldn't, so they'd need to survey and then weigh the trade-offs between alternate routes. Even with talents, that doesn't happen overnight.

[Aside: "deep" is a somewhat flexible term that depends a lot on what boat you're floating. The Erie Canal opened with 4', but had to be deepened to 12' to handle 2000t barges. The Sharonan's ocean-going vessels probably need 20-26']

phillies wrote:It seems to me that water transport is the answer, rather than trying to run through rail tracks, at least in the short run.

Louis R wrote:Don't forget that the Swamp Portal out of Hell's Gate represents a major logistic problem for both sides. One that Arcana actually has the edge on at the moment: they have a 'water-proof' heavy lift capacity immediately available, where Sharona doesn't. If I'm correct in thinking that the swamp in question is the Amazon Basin, it's not going to be nearly the impediment that the Arcanans probably think it is, but it's still going to be a royal pain. Sharona will have to build track from the portal to the nearest major branch of the river, and unless they're very lucky there will be many miles of terrain needing 20-30 feet of fill to keep the track stable and above high water. That's engineering on a par with the Traisum cut - if rather less spectacular - but the Sharonans have already demonstrated that they are up to it. Even assuming that they have complete control of the area and can work unimpeded, however, I'd not be surprised if it took a year after the railhead reaches Hell's Gate before they could get boats on the river and reach the sea. And they won't be unimpeded, because in the mean time the Arcanans can fly what they need [or what they have available, at any rate] into whatever operations bases they set up outside the reach of Sharona's guns.

Down in the mud, again Arcana has the edge - as long as they have enough accumulators - in moving men and equipment. Sharona, OTOH, probably has the better kit when they can get it where they need it.

All in all, even should Sharona gain uncontested control of Hell's Gate, something I'm _not_ betting on, breaking out of it will be a slow, messy process.
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