Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Guns, Guns Guns

The Management is not responsible for the contents of this forum. Enter at your own risk.
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by edgeworthy   » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:22 pm

edgeworthy
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:34 pm

Someone want to explain to him that several European countries have no native Aristocracy at all!?
(Greece, Norway, Ireland, Finland etc.)

Or that in the time period covered by the existence of the United States some of countries have quite forcibly removed those nobility that remain from positions of authority.
(And none retain any official precedence)
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by The E   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:48 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2604
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Bielefeld, Germany

edgeworthy wrote:Someone want to explain to him that several European countries have no native Aristocracy at all!?
(Greece, Norway, Ireland, Finland etc.)


Imaginos is a religious fanatic. Not so much in the "fire and brimstone on the unbelievers" mold but rather in that "The US is the only free country in the World" and "Europeans do not have true democracy" are unshakeable articles of faith for him - these are not "reason-able" positions that are supported by facts (although I am sure that, if he wanted to, he could come up with any number of attempted justifications for the correctness of his beliefs), they are axioms from which his entire worldview is constructed. To admit fault in them would be sacrilege.

Imaginos1892 wrote:‘The Government’ has no rights at all.


You have an entire Constitution that says differently, you know.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:47 am

isaac_newton
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

Imaginos1892 wrote:
Daryl wrote:Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government?

‘The Government’ has no rights at all.

So, you don’t trust ‘people’ with guns — has it escaped your notice that ‘The Government’ is a bunch of people? Being in the government does not make them better people; indeed, all evidence indicates that ‘The Government’ is largely comprised of people worse than average.

Daryl wrote:I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.

See, that’s the problem with trying to explain things to a bunch of damn Europeans. You’re used to being governed by a class of aristocrats that have more rights than the peasants they rule over. We rejected that paradigm in 1776, and in 1789 we instituted a completely new form of government in which all rights are held by the people. Certain powers and responsibilities are delegated to the government, but when the government abdicates its responsibilities, and abuses its power, The People reserve the right to TAKE THEM BACK. Just like we did 245 years ago.
———————————
Most days, I suspect that we could get a better government by picking 535 people at random. On bad days, I’m certain we’d get a better government by picking 535 people at random from lunatic asylums.


Well - being from one of the few european countries with a semi-serious bunch of aritocrats - I am going to suprise many people here by saying I have a certain degree of sympathy for Imaginos position... :-)

Not on guns, but on the fact that we have a set of right wing totally corrupt bastards in power, who are wrapping themselves in the Union Jack to avoid any honest enquiry, protest or critism. A large percentage of them have inherited wealth. Does that remind you of Trump and his minions? It should!!
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by The E   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:52 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2604
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Bielefeld, Germany

isaac_newton wrote:Well - being from one of the few european countries with a semi-serious bunch of aritocrats - I am going to suprise many people here by saying I have a certain degree of sympathy for Imaginos position... :-)

Not on guns, but on the fact that we have a set of right wing totally corrupt bastards in power, who are wrapping themselves in the Union Jack to avoid any honest enquiry, protest or critism. A large percentage of them have inherited wealth. Does that remind you of Trump and his minions? It should!!


Given the uniquely fucked-up situation in the UK, I do not blame you for wanting some more of that good direct democracy stuff.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Arol   » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:37 am

Arol
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

isaac_newton wrote:
Well - being from one of the few european countries with a semi-serious bunch of aritocrats - I am going to suprise many people here by saying I have a certain degree of sympathy for Imaginos position... :-)

Not on guns, but on the fact that we have a set of right wing totally corrupt bastards in power, who are wrapping themselves in the Union Jack to avoid any honest enquiry, protest or critism. A large percentage of them have inherited wealth. Does that remind you of Trump and his minions? It should!!

You sometimes have to admire the brass of some of this inbreed clique. :P
In that not only do they invite the hoi polloi to their vast estates, to see how their better live, but they actually get them to pay for the honour!!!! :o
No small wonder that they have remained at the top of the pile for so long! :roll:
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:52 am

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3254
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Imaginos, look at my sign in info. Location Australia.
We don't have an aristocracy, and actually have a national mindset of "taking the mickey" that would preclude anyone like Trump gaining power. He would be ridiculed out of office.
Sure Betty Windsor in London is technically our head of state, and that is not rational, except that she has no real world power whereas an elected President might have, which we don't want.
Only in the US is armed insurrection seen by some as ethical. To the rest of us it is treason and crazy.
A story to illustrate my point. A couple of decades ago in London, I was explaining to a computer illiterate friend about Google. To illustrate it I Googled my name, and got a surprise. Just before I had left home I had written a Letter to the Editor to our premier national paper, referring to our then PM (John Howard) as Bush's suppository, in regard to his subservient approach to US relations. The paper had not only printed it, but their cartoonist had drawn a picture of Bush with a small Howard sticking out of his rear end. Google picked me up as the originator. People thought it was funny.
Just as an aside I did an ancestor search and am descended from German aristocracy and royalty from my father's side, and English royalty and aristocracy on my mother's side. Means nothing except idle curiosity.

So reserving the right to take them back, means anarchy or dictatorship on your terms?


Imaginos1892 wrote:
Daryl wrote:Interesting to read that you believe that private citizens have more rights to have guns than the government?

‘The Government’ has no rights at all.

So, you don’t trust ‘people’ with guns — has it escaped your notice that ‘The Government’ is a bunch of people? Being in the government does not make them better people; indeed, all evidence indicates that ‘The Government’ is largely comprised of people worse than average.

Daryl wrote:I doubt that any other developed country would have citizens who think that.

See, that’s the problem with trying to explain things to a bunch of damn Europeans. You’re used to being governed by a class of aristocrats that have more rights than the peasants they rule over. We rejected that paradigm in 1776, and in 1789 we instituted a completely new form of government in which all rights are held by the people. Certain powers and responsibilities are delegated to the government, but when the government abdicates its responsibilities, and abuses its power, The People reserve the right to TAKE THEM BACK. Just like we did 245 years ago.
———————————
Most days, I suspect that we could get a better government by picking 535 people at random. On bad days, I’m certain we’d get a better government by picking 535 people at random from lunatic asylums.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:57 am

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3254
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Hey Arol, I thought that I'd just mention that your future Queen was an Australian real estate agent until your Prince Frederick picked her up in a pub. Shows how egalitarian your Danish royalty are. Hardly oppressors of the masses.

Arol wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
Well - being from one of the few european countries with a semi-serious bunch of aritocrats - I am going to suprise many people here by saying I have a certain degree of sympathy for Imaginos position... :-)

Not on guns, but on the fact that we have a set of right wing totally corrupt bastards in power, who are wrapping themselves in the Union Jack to avoid any honest enquiry, protest or critism. A large percentage of them have inherited wealth. Does that remind you of Trump and his minions? It should!!

You sometimes have to admire the brass of some of this inbreed clique. :P
In that not only do they invite the hoi polloi to their vast estates, to see how their better live, but they actually get them to pay for the honour!!!! :o
No small wonder that they have remained at the top of the pile for so long! :roll:
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:25 am

isaac_newton
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

Arol wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
Well - being from one of the few european countries with a semi-serious bunch of aritocrats - I am going to suprise many people here by saying I have a certain degree of sympathy for Imaginos position... :-)

Not on guns, but on the fact that we have a set of right wing totally corrupt bastards in power, who are wrapping themselves in the Union Jack to avoid any honest enquiry, protest or critism. A large percentage of them have inherited wealth. Does that remind you of Trump and his minions? It should!!

You sometimes have to admire the brass of some of this inbreed clique. :P
In that not only do they invite the hoi polloi to their vast estates, to see how their better live, but they actually get them to pay for the honour!!!! :o
No small wonder that they have remained at the top of the pile for so long! :roll:


:-)

well, to be fair, a LOT of the big houses [and big stretches of significant countryside] are owned and run by the National Trust, which is financed by annual membership fees of about £100 - millions of people [inluding myself] are members.

The national trust is actually getting into trouble at the moment by some v right wing commentators for daring to actually describe the history of these places, and how many were funded by slavery or by the massive payoffs [a v v significant chunk of the national income] made to slave owners when slavery was made illegal in our colonies].

Having said that, some of the aristocratic families understand that what they have is in trust, but others [most?] see it purely in terms of gain to themselves.

I'd also say that on the whole, aristocratic families dont have much direct political power - though many, such as our current corrupt PM come from that mileau.


I guess thats why RFC's discussion of the political situation in Landing [Honoverse] is so fascinating to us from the UK! It rings so many bells, without being a direct copy.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Arol   » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Arol
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

isaac_newton wrote:...I'd also say that on the whole, aristocratic families dont have much direct political power - though many, such as our current corrupt PM come from that mileau.


I guess thats why RFC's discussion of the political situation in Landing [Honoverse] is so fascinating to us from the UK! It rings so many bells, without being a direct copy.


The one thing that’s fascinating about the British aristocracy is its durability that it has lasted as long as it has. Whereas most of the aristocratic houses in the western democracies have/are withering on the wine, with all that’s left are fancy titles and in some cases family estates.
One of the reasons may be that the Brits were never shy about co-opting new blood into their ranks. Taking them in giving them a title like Sir/Dame this or Lord/Lady that.
Taking potential talent from Them and making them One of Us! ;) Pretty canny!
Bonny was of like mind when he said that in every soldier’s knapsack a Marshals baton might lie hidden as in the case of Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte. Here you had a man who in his youth was a flaming left-wing Jacobin radical. He not only gained his Marshal baton but rose to be king of Sweden, and his descendants still sit on throne.
A final irony is that in his revolutionary youth he had gotten a tattoo on his arm: Death to Kings! :lol:
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by edgeworthy   » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:58 pm

edgeworthy
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:34 pm

I seriously don't know where the idea the Boris Johnson is a member of the aristocracy comes from?

None of his ancestors had a title. His Grandfathers were a Russo-American Jewish academic and the son of a Turkish diplomat (Yes he has Jewish and Muslim ancestry)

His family is well off, but nothing near 1% wealthy.
Boris did go to Eton ... on a Scholarship!
(As did George Orwell, John Maynard Keynes and Aldous Huxley)
Top

Return to Politics