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Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine

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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Daryl   » Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:51 am

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I believe that there is also an element of what I call the conservative myth, been around for many years.
That is that conservatives are square jawed, fearless, capable and competent; meanwhile progressives are weak, fearful, incompetent and ineffectual.
A classic example was Hitler ridiculing the English, as "A nation of shop keepers, who will be wiped out by my Storm troopers". Coming from a weedy little person who was scared of women, that would have been funny in other circumstances.
People by and large cover all aspects of the human condition, across all demographics. I could even do my own bit in fostering prejudice in quoting a number of psychological studies, that found that while individuals varied, conservatives average out 10 IQ points lower than progressives. A postulated reason for this is that dumber people have trouble coping with change, so are fearful of it and tend to be conservative.
Certainly anecdotally, I have a wide range of friends, and have noticed that the blue collar truck drivers, trades men and such tend to be conservatives; while university professors and doctors tend to be progressives.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by The E   » Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:56 am

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Daryl wrote:That is that conservatives are square jawed, fearless, capable and competent; meanwhile progressives are weak, fearful, incompetent and ineffectual.


It's the classic fascist two-step program to creating an Other to rail against: We are strong and they are weak, therefore we will win, but they are strong and in control so the fight will be hard while we are weak and must reject any of their weakness to insinuate itself into our ranks.

I could even do my own bit in fostering prejudice in quoting a number of psychological studies, that found that while individuals varied, conservatives average out 10 IQ points lower than progressives. A postulated reason for this is that dumber people have trouble coping with change, so are fearful of it and tend to be conservative.


This is a simplistic notion, and must be rejected out of hand. First of all, we must acknowledge that IQ tests aren't all that great at measuring smartness: doing well on one of those tests means that you're conforming to the test author's idea of a smart person, nothing more and nothing less. Solving math or logic problems, for example, is an easily accepted standard for smartness in western culture, because those disciplines are part of the core of what we consider to be our strengths as a culture -- however, there are plenty of whip-smart people out there who can't make heads or tails of calculus. IQ tests create the illusion that intelligence is somehow an objective thing that can be measured, when it is in fact something that is highly situational and highly dependant on context.
Using IQ measurements to make value judgments about people is not something we should do, IMHO.
(Similarly, scoring lower on an IQ test isn't really an indicator on a person's ability to handle change)

Certainly anecdotally, I have a wide range of friends, and have noticed that the blue collar truck drivers, trades men and such tend to be conservatives; while university professors and doctors tend to be progressives.


But are those professors and doctors really smarter than the truck drivers or tradespeople?
Like, traditionally we consider people who went through university and made their careers in academia or in science and medicine to be smart, but... well, plenty of people who made it through that system are just as stupid as the rest of us, if not more so. To be successful in blue-collar work these days, you do have to have skills, you do have to be willing and able to continuously refine your craft and get more skills, all of which requires intelligence and intellectual versatility to one degree or another.

The point being, I don't think that whether you're ending up on the conservative or liberal end of the spectrum has anything at all to do with smartness. IMHO, it's more of a question of which environment you end up in: After all, as the growing worker's movement shows, being liberal or holding liberal positions on certain issues doesn't necessarily correlate with education.
A university education certainly leads to a higher chance that someone gets exposed to socialist thought or to leftish ideas than they would get on their own, but the decision of whether or not to embrace those ideas is more informed by other social cues, what your friends or love interests are into for example.
People tend to be more conservative, bluntly speaking, the more established they are and the more they have to lose if something changes. Once you get deep into house-ownership ideas like disowning landlords get threatening suddenly, once you have that investment portfolio set aside for your retirement, the idea that the finance industry is bad and should be burned to the ground is a threat to you.
In the US specifically, there's also the "temporarily embarrassed rich person" problem: People with conservative leanings are encouraged to adopt positions that are benefitial for a richer version of themselves, rather than take positions that would benefit them now; If we raise taxes on the rich now, why, I'll have to pay more when I make it big, so we shouldn't be raising taxes!
Conservatives, in essence, do not fear change in general - what they fear, specifically, is a change in the status quo that would threaten their standing.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:19 pm

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The E wrote:Note also that Ukraine is absolutely crushing it on the western media front of this particular war. Even fake stories like the "Ghost of Kyiv" get enormous traction, while we're not seeing anything from the russian side. There's no counter-narrative, no footage of people in Ukraine welcoming the russian army as liberators, no stories of ukrainian atrocities, nothing. There's nothing for pro-russian commentators to feed off of except Putin's proclamations, and it shows.

Right!
At least in the old bullshit propaganda from the USSR, there was some panache. But here, nothing, zip, nada!!!


At the start of this thread I had trouble accepting the contradictions; or downright lies, that was coming from the Russian sources. Maybe it just pissed me off that these lying bullshit artists expected me to believe them.
Another poster did point out to me that the BS was mainly meant for their domestic Russian audience.
True enough then I recalled a conversation with a Russian back in the day when there still was a USSR. I’d naïvely asked him if they (Russians) really believed the all the propaganda with which they were inundated.
His answer was enlightening,” Hell no, sure some do, but most have learned to separate shit from Shinola.”
When asked why they watched it, the answer was basically the same an inveterate gambler gives when asked why play on a table you know is rigged: “It’s the only game in town!”
Even in these days with more readily available information, it’s clear that some people still find it more comfortable (and in this case, maybe safer!) to play on the crooked table.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60600487
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by n7axw   » Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:09 pm

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Those were two very thoughtful posts, E. Just a couple of thoughts to toss on to your excellent posts. First, they don't like multiculturalism which means that they image Russia as a last refuge for white culture, however true or false that might be. So their illusion allows them an escape from the rough and tumble here. At any rate, look at those beautiful blonde and brunette young women representing the Russians in the figure skating competition at the Olympics and contrast them with the Asian American women representing us. Trump normally irritates me. But there was one occasion when I had to laugh. He asked rather plaintively why more Norwegians weren't immigrating our way.

Secondly, Trump is an authoritarian who worships Putin, so his groupies are like lemmings following him over the Cliff.
I've often wondered if our right wingers actually had to live in Russia and taste the reality of life over there how long they would last.

Finally, there is a strong cultural issue in all of this. American conservatives seem to want to drag us back to the cultural norms of the fifties and the economic values of the 1890s. When the rest of us refuse to follow their lead, they get upset. They call themselves patriots, but to the America of their dreams. To the America of here and now? Not so much...

Don

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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:58 am

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-c ... -1.6375181
:twisted: Oh, that’s cold; even by Russian standards, cold and low!!! :twisted:
For two straight days the Russians offered “safe” corridors out of cities being bombed.
When refugees streamed out of hiding to the use the corridors, they shelled on or near the corridors; killing a number of the fleeing refugees, forcing the rest to return to hiding.
Then again they offered to establish open safe corridors for the refugees, but this time corridors leading into Belarus and Russia!
Into the hands of the very people that are reducing their cities to rubble, who are killing Ukrainian men women and children.
Forcing the refugees to choose between the devil or the deep blue sea! Between risking their family’s lives to indiscriminate bombs or missiles, or ending up in an enemy prison camp.
Because prison camps are what they’ll be! Prison camps housing enemy non-combatants!
It’s to be hoped that the IRC is able to protect and identify any Ukrainians that end up accepting this “magnanimous humanitarian” offer!!!
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:53 am

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https://www.foxnews.com/us/russia-alask ... -sanctions
Russian Duma member wants Alaska returned to Russia!!! :o
It seems that Putin’s mental state is not the only one that should be questioned. You really have to wonder what they put in their tea over there. Or maybe it’s just something in the water over there. :lol:
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:56 am

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RIA Novosti article that accidentally got put up on Feb. 28
https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051 ... 62336.html
The following was a RIA Novosti article that was posted on Feb. 28, when Russia still expected a walk-over in their invasion. When that expectation went into the crapper, the article was removed.
I found it in another forum where the poster had googled translated it, the link leads to the original Russian version if anyone here is proficient in Russian:

:twisted: The Offensive of Russia and the New World

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era - and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system - but this is worth talking about separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe in our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, then we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed, without a drop of exaggeration, a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia - for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the West to put pressure on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then was forced to come to terms with the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia," or to gnash one's teeth helplessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine." Returning Ukraine, that is, turning it back to Russia, would be more and more difficult with every decade - recoding, de-Russification of Russians and inciting Ukrainian Little Russians against Russians would gain momentum. And in the event of the consolidation of the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine, its return to Russia would become completely impossible - it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. Within what boundaries, in what form will the alliance with Russia be consolidated (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russian. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe. And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.

Did someone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believe that Moscow would give up Kyiv? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which took place according to the good Russian (albeit not very smart) will. To swipe after that also on Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe in particular, did not have the strength to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. In order not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of the western space to the east. Seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time - the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No amount of Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. There will be losses from the sublimation of confrontation on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation incurs huge costs - and the main ones are not at all economic.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy - the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining the Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. Yes, and it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe needs autonomy for another reason as well — in case the States go into self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives the Europeans of even the chances of independence - not to mention the fact that in the same way Europe is trying to impose a break with China. If now the Atlanticists are happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then in Berlin and Paris they cannot fail to understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over in any case - but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order - and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are more and more clearly visible through the spreading cover of Anglo-Saxon globalization. A multipolar world has finally become a reality - the operation in Ukraine is not capable of rallying anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not only challenged the West, it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, naturally, together with the West (united or not) - but not on its terms and not according to its rules. :twisted:

If this is the mind-set that is prevalent in the Kremlin then this is a disturbing read! A
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:06 am

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Arol wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/us/russia-alaska-california-fort-reparations-sanctions
Russian Duma member wants Alaska returned to Russia!!! :o
It seems that Putin’s mental state is not the only one that should be questioned. You really have to wonder what they put in their tea over there. Or maybe it’s just something in the water over there. :lol:


When paranoia takes over, all sorts of goofy stuff crawls out of the woodwork. Unfortunately, we have our share.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:54 am

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I am not going to make everybody scroll past the article to get to what I have to say in response. But I will note that we are all the center of our own universe. The article illustrates that. We also suffer from the affliction here. To greater or lesser extent, everybody does.

The second thing that the article assumes is that the West is automatically hostile to Russia. Nobody was threatening Russia... not even Ukraine. If Russia wanted a friendly Ukraine on its borders, the best way to achieve that is to act in a friendly manner. Then the whole subject of NATO doesn't come up.

Finally, there is a new world order coming. Who will be the dominant players and what it will look like nobody knows. How long it takes to get here is also beyond the horizon. We can only work to toward making it as benevolent for as many people as possible.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:07 pm

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n7axw wrote:I am not going to make everybody scroll past the article to get to what I have to say in response. But I will note that we are all the center of our own universe. The article illustrates that. We also suffer from the affliction here. To greater or lesser extent, everybody does.

The second thing that the article assumes is that the West is automatically hostile to Russia. Nobody was threatening Russia... not even Ukraine. If Russia wanted a friendly Ukraine on its borders, the best way to achieve that is to act in a friendly manner. Then the whole subject of NATO doesn't come up.

Finally, there is a new world order coming. Who will be the dominant players and what it will look like nobody knows. How long it takes to get here is also beyond the horizon. We can only work to toward making it as benevolent for as many people as possible.

Don

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Don, current events, Ukraine and the idea of a new world order makes me quiver having digested Revelations in the Bible.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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