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Fundamentalism and science

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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:28 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:Exhaustively setting aside your common "scientific" argument, you may be ignorantly citing the messy and controversial Doctrine of Predestination and Election.

No, I'm not. What you linked to is an argument based on the notion that God actually exists and how he controls the predestination of each individual's faith.

Predestination isn't about control. It is about God choosing those who he knows will choose him.

Your own post says that Christians are predestined to have faith because they have this one distinctive gene. If true, perhaps God gave them this distinctive gene to augment their faith. Connect your own dots.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:50 pm

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cthia wrote:All Christians are NOT anti-science when it is obvious that science is a viable discipline, although we do dislike the breed of scientist who try to use - or think- science disproves or will ever disprove the idea or existence of a deity.

The E wrote:Science can only prove what is measurable, quantifiable.

Within the constraints of our own universe. There may be other universes with completely different physical laws. Which means none of our scientific truths are absolute.

The E wrote:God is neither (due to not existing),

I've searched and searched the internet for this Godometer you use to make that claim. Christians know for a fact that God exists. Perhaps it is the special gene which Joat says we have that senses the Almighty?

The E wrote:thus the only scientifically accurate statement about gods is "there are people who believe in them"; nothing more, nothing less.

Well, everybody believes in "gods." The small "g" is money, gold, and bronze statues. The trick is not to worship them.

But I do believe the conversation is about God. The big G. K?

cthia wrote:Also, all scientists are NOT anti-God. Many scientists are Christians. We are aware that science will never disprove that there is a God, and that science actually supports the existence of a God at most every turn. There has never been a single nail that science can drive into the existence of a God. Scientists used three nails once. It didn't work.


The E wrote:... I was, until now, unaware that the faceless roman goons that supposedly nailed jesus to the cross were actually scientists.

What degrees did they have, I wonder....

A degree of stupidity and recklessness for certain.

Quite possibly in those times more than in any other time, you were either... 1) A believer or 2) A scientist or a scientist's flunky. You were either for or against God.

What I dislike about certain scientists is their close minded attitudes simply because faith cannot be explained. Some scientists will never understand that some things simply cannot be explained simply by science.


The E wrote:Just because noone has been able to come up with a positive proof for the existance of god that is actually scientifically valid (as in, follows the scientific method, is reproducable...) doesn't mean that god actually exists. Belief in a thing does not make a thing more real.

Disbelief in something or someone who does exist makes them unreal?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:12 pm

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Daryl wrote:It must be comforting to be a believer. I'd love to live for ever, and to talk to my parents again. However my logical mind just can't let me even fake it.

It is very comforting. We all have loved ones we would like to see again. Although I, for one, don't wish to be reunited with them in Hell.

But, any theory which doesn't have God as the creator ... which imagines that matter and everything else magically sprang from... pixie dust - something which wasn't there ether :D - or that somehow somethingness sprang from absolute nothingness is a logic that confounds me. I can't even begin to try to believe in that at all. Not even a little bit. My handle "cthia" means logic. The logic in me simply can't fake believing that "something" formed from "nothing." Even spontaneous combustion needs something to spontaneously combust.

Now, to make that make a bit more sense, some scientist's argue that "void" does not mean an absolute void. They argue that there was some "stuff" that always existed. Which is a flavor of existentialism. They believe that something ALWAYS existed. But that that something couldn't have been a someone. shrug

Heck, that theory should require a bigger leap than the belief in a God. Especially for a scientist, and a mathematician.

This is all I shall say on the existence of God, and my faith. I shall respect your opinions, because, even though I am certain God exists, since I am not God, I could be wrong, or controlled by aliens.

I shall also respect Don's wishes not to turn this thread into more of the same old songs. Unless they are hymns.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:45 pm

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cthia wrote:Predestination isn't about control. It is about God choosing those who he knows will choose him.

Predestination specifically means that some divine being or fate already decided the outcome, which in the context of Christianity means that God have already made the choice for you, you are just a puppet acting out your fate. It's very simple, either we have free will, or we are predestined to do an action because the game was already rigged from the start.

cthia wrote:Your own post says that Christians are predestined to have faith because they have this one distinctive gene. If true, perhaps God gave them this distinctive gene to augment their faith.

No, that was not what my post said at all, I don't even mention Christians. My post explained that to survive the harsh realities of prehistoric times this gene conferred an advantage by letting people believe in fairytales (aka mysticism/spiritualism) to make them cope and through natural selection it spread. Not every person who is religious have this gene, regardless, the implication of what you are saying is that God decided that those who lack the VMAT2-gene was never intended to "find God".

cthia wrote:Connect your own dots.

I did, you didn't. You took my statement and specifically looked at it entirely from your viewpoint as a Christian which severely limits the logic that can be applied. As much as logic can be applied to religious beliefs that is entirely built on something unverifiable and circular reasoning.

Anyway, the gene isn't specific to Christians, it's prevalent in all religious faiths and cults.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:53 pm

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cthia wrote:I've searched and searched the internet for this Godometer you use to make that claim. Christians know for a fact that God exists. Perhaps it is the special gene which Joat says we have that senses the Almighty?

You will NOT put words in my mouth since I have NEVER said that. That you willingly twist what I wrote says it all.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:34 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:I've searched and searched the internet for this Godometer you use to make that claim. Christians know for a fact that God exists. Perhaps it is the special gene which Joat says we have that senses the Almighty?

You will NOT put words in my mouth since I have NEVER said that. That you willingly twist what I wrote says it all.


At risk of continuing the tone of this discussion, what gene are we talking about? Something discovered and identified objectively? Something being conjectured? What? Sorry if I am being thick...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by zyffyr   » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:24 pm

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n7axw wrote:
At risk of continuing the tone of this discussion, what gene are we talking about? Something discovered and identified objectively? Something being conjectured? What? Sorry if I am being thick...

Don

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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene for a quick overview.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by Joat42   » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:At risk of continuing the tone of this discussion, what gene are we talking about? Something discovered and identified objectively? Something being conjectured? What? Sorry if I am being thick...

Don

-

The gene I'm talking about creates vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2) proteins in the brain which helps transporting neurotransmitters during higher order processing (abstract concepts, analytical, brain-storming etc) in the brain, like religious thoughts (but not limited to). The current theory is that this had an evolutionary advantage that gave people a means to cope and have optimism in a harsh reality. It's conjectured that it's one of the factors that predisposes people to be spiritual or believe in mysticism.

The whole concept and how it can be measured is called "self-transcendence" and it's scientifically established that about 40% of this specific metric is hereditary. It does not on any level affect a persons propensity to gravitate towards a specific belief since this is entirely an environmental factor, aka growing up among Buddhists means you will most likely become a Buddhist.

TL;DR: What a person believes in is mostly decided by what culture they live in and there seems to be genes that helps people to become spiritual and/or have mystic experiences like having a sense of being connected to something greater which can be an evolutionary advantage.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:19 pm

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cthia wrote:
gcomeau wrote:Bible Belt.

They're not resistant to science, they're actively hostile to it. I've lost count of how many times I've heard that some scientist or another was a tool of Satan from those morons.

All Christians are NOT anti-science when it is obvious that science is a viable discipline, although we do dislike the breed of scientist who try to use - or think- science disproves or will ever disprove the idea or existence of a deity.


The vast majority of scientists would never try to claim that any supernatural hypothesis could be disproven. That's essentially impossible.

What they do do is point out that such hypotheses are unfalsifiable and thus inherently worthless. If you cannot test whether or not a claim is false it serves no purpose. It imparts no knowledge or understanding. It explains nothing. It's just people engaging in feel good story telling.

Also, all scientists are NOT anti-God. Many scientists are Christians.


Yes, I've met several.

Without exception every one I have met does this by engaging in an act of mental compartmentalization where they carve out a special exemption for their religious faith where it is not subject to the same rules of logic and evidence all other claims are subjected to. (Like, for example, the importance of falsifiability in hypotheses)

Or in short, they employ Special Pleading to protect their faith from scrutiny that would otherwise dismantle it because they don't want to give it up.

What I dislike about certain scientists is their close minded attitudes simply because faith cannot be explained.


You realize if anyone came up to you with ANY other topic and said "I expect you to believe this thing I'm telling you but I can't in any way actually explain it or support it" you'd laugh them out of the room right? That's not being close minded, that's just being reasonable.
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Re: Fundamentalism and science
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:20 pm

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cthia wrote:
Joat42 wrote:No, I'm not. What you linked to is an argument based on the notion that God actually exists and how he controls the predestination of each individual's faith.

Predestination isn't about control. It is about God choosing those who he knows will choose him.


Something which cannot be known in advance unless their choosing him has been predetermined. Which is exerting control.

Your own post says that Christians are predestined to have faith because they have this one distinctive gene.


There is a difference between predisposition and predestination.
Last edited by gcomeau on Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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