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Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine

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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:04 am

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In his latest speech Putin, gave all the appearances of a dictator laying the groundwork for starting a purge.
Earlier in this thread there were posters that; now that we are in David Weber’s forum, compared some of what happening to events and people in the Honorverse. Well going with that comparison, I’ll venture that an obvious one would be Putin = St. Just! Both soft spoken full blown sociopaths!
Now I may be wrong, but I don’t see a Theismann or a von Stauffenberg, emerging from the flock of sycophants surrounding Putin. That said the speech might give the impetus for someone with access, and who has aroused Putin’s ire to act, if for no other reason than to save their own butt.
But that old one with a bomb in a suitcase placed under a conference table is a no go.
There was a video with Putin in conference with his advisors that had him at the head of a 30m conference table with his advisors in a small clutch at other end.
Apparently Putin is a student of history.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f-traitors
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by The E   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:58 am

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Arol wrote:
There was a video with Putin in conference with his advisors that had him at the head of a 30m conference table with his advisors in a small clutch at other end.
Apparently Putin is a student of history.


If he is, he's doing pretty badly on his exams.

Because if he was a good student of history, he would have recalled Russia's brushes with short victorious wars and how they haven't really worked out for Russia in the past.
If he had just remembered his own career in the KGB, and how often he had to lie to his superiors lest he get "retired" for defeatism, he would probably had been a bit more skeptical about the russian army's readiness reports and the situation reports from his ukrainian sources.

As for the long tables: those don't really have anything to do with Putin being afraid of his generals (he is, which is why the only ones allowed near him are fully bought patsies like Shoygu), but rather with him being a 70 year old man who seems to be on a regime of immunosuppressants to combat MS.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Arol   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:11 pm

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The E wrote:
Arol wrote:
There was a video with Putin in conference with his advisors that had him at the head of a 30m conference table with his advisors in a small clutch at other end.
Apparently Putin is a student of history.


If he is, he's doing pretty badly on his exams.

Because if he was a good student of history, he would have recalled Russia's brushes with short victorious wars and how they haven't really worked out for Russia in the past.
If he had just remembered his own career in the KGB, and how often he had to lie to his superiors lest he get "retired" for defeatism, he would probably had been a bit more skeptical about the russian army's readiness reports and the situation reports from his ukrainian sources.

As for the long tables: those don't really have anything to do with Putin being afraid of his generals (he is, which is why the only ones allowed near him are fully bought patsies like Shoygu), but rather with him being a 70 year old man who seems to be on a regime of immunosuppressants to combat MS.


Never said that he was an A student. :)
I’ve seen the reports that speculate on his health, so your comment on it being MS might be right on. With him being a virtual hermit during the height of the Covid pandemic, also the report that people desiring and audience with him at this time had to submit to a disinfection shower before being allowed into his presence.
There is an oddity though, he has also been seen in the with people around him, as an example, him in a room with a group of very attractive, very stiff faced, young apprentice Aeroflot stewardesses. Not what you’d expect from a Germaphobe.
Got me thinking that he may be using a body-double, to stand in for the meet and greet events. If so that would certainly make any “removal” problematic to say the least.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by The E   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:22 pm

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Arol wrote:There is an oddity though, he has also been seen in the with people around him, as an example, him in a room with a group of very attractive, very stiff faced, young apprentice Aeroflot stewardesses. Not what you’d expect from a Germaphobe.
Got me thinking that he may be using a body-double, to stand in for the meet and greet events. If so that would certainly make any “removal” problematic to say the least.


Putin isn't a germophobe, he's being very careful - and I figure he figures that being near a bunch of young, healthy women is not a risk (or, if it is, that the propaganda value of doing this session is greater than the potential risk). Body double sounds too much like spy thriller nonsense to me; sure, they exist, but if Putin had a double that could convincingly play the role in a press conference like that, it would be an insane risk for him - his position is currently dependant on the security services, and the sanctions imposed on Russia are going to hurt the money side of the russian deep power structures and they are going to act at some point.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Daryl   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:47 pm

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We do live in worrying times, where an absolute dictator may decide for himself personally, that it might be better to emerge from a bunker with his Praetorian Guard to rule over a reduced nuclear wasteland, than to risk being brought to the Hague as a war criminal, and put in a cell for the rest of his life.
As discussed before though, the musings of a few itinerant goat farmers from three thousand years ago doesn't concern me.
cthia wrote:
n7axw wrote:I am not going to make everybody scroll past the article to get to what I have to say in response. But I will note that we are all the center of our own universe. The article illustrates that. We also suffer from the affliction here. To greater or lesser extent, everybody does.

The second thing that the article assumes is that the West is automatically hostile to Russia. Nobody was threatening Russia... not even Ukraine. If Russia wanted a friendly Ukraine on its borders, the best way to achieve that is to act in a friendly manner. Then the whole subject of NATO doesn't come up.

Finally, there is a new world order coming. Who will be the dominant players and what it will look like nobody knows. How long it takes to get here is also beyond the horizon. We can only work to toward making it as benevolent for as many people as possible.

Don

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Don, current events, Ukraine and the idea of a new world order makes me quiver having digested Revelations in the Bible.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Daryl   » Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:07 pm

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Reply without a wall of text to The E.
I had resolved to not respond to your reply to my comment that mentioned IQ, as it is somewhat of a red herring, not directly addressing this topic. Then I decided, that I did need a right of reply, as my casual single sentence had attracted a page of critical attack.
I do agree that IQ isn't a definitive measure of intelligence (much as I'd like to, being way over on the right of the Belbin graph) and that it tends to be culture specific. We have a TV show here called The Einstein Factor, which is a general knowledge quiz, and as such funny as Albert would have been flat out telling you what time of day it was.
That said, I was involved in an assessment of our senior public service chiefs, testing them for IQ, EQ, and a myriad of other such tests.
There was a general correlation between successful departments, and scores from their heads. Far from exact, but enough to suggest that there was some utility in using these tests as part of the selection process.
As to my casual assertion that conservatives tend to be dumber, I'll double down anecdotally by mentioning that among my circle of friends, the conservatives don't have any understanding on topics like climate change or Covid vaccines, they just know that they are against it.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Joat42   » Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:02 am

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Daryl wrote:Reply without a wall of text to The E.
I had resolved to not respond to your reply to my comment that mentioned IQ, as it is somewhat of a red herring, not directly addressing this topic. Then I decided, that I did need a right of reply, as my casual single sentence had attracted a page of critical attack.
I do agree that IQ isn't a definitive measure of intelligence (much as I'd like to, being way over on the right of the Belbin graph) and that it tends to be culture specific. We have a TV show here called The Einstein Factor, which is a general knowledge quiz, and as such funny as Albert would have been flat out telling you what time of day it was.
That said, I was involved in an assessment of our senior public service chiefs, testing them for IQ, EQ, and a myriad of other such tests.
There was a general correlation between successful departments, and scores from their heads. Far from exact, but enough to suggest that there was some utility in using these tests as part of the selection process.
As to my casual assertion that conservatives tend to be dumber, I'll double down anecdotally by mentioning that among my circle of friends, the conservatives don't have any understanding on topics like climate change or Covid vaccines, they just know that they are against it.

It all comes down to the fact that the factual or real IQ of someone can't be reduced to single value. We can make people take tests to get an indication how "smart" they are, but IQ tests are extremely colored by our environment and cultural preconceptions of what a person should now or how they should reason to get a high score.

For example, there are tribes in Africa that has a measurable better memory than most westerns - but it's entirely dependent on what types of information they are supposed to remember. A study showed that they had big problems remembering images of everyday objects found in western homes, but if the images where of rocks, trees or other natural objects they nailed the test almost every time.

When it comes to finding out if someone is a good fit for a particular job one of the few tools we have are tests and later on evaluation, unless we know the person in question.

The anecdotal evidence that conservatives are dumber is not surprising, people who are conservative (as a mindset and not necessarily in political leanings although they are connected) quickly become set in their ways and anything that threatens that should either be ignored or fought against. How many times haven't I heard someone say "We have always done it this way, why do we need to change it?" in my line of work when new technology necessitated a change in how we do things. I've seen people literally being out of their depth because we changed browsers and the icon on the desktop changed. It's also the same type of people who don't get that science is a progress and everchanging. These people complain that "why don't the scientist make their damn mind up!" as if the world is a static place, and that also explains why they distrust science.

Addendum: Seems we have strayed a bit from the topic :)

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by Joat42   » Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:07 am

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I do wonder, is Sergey Lavrov becoming the new Bagdad Bob?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:47 pm

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Daryl wrote:Reply without a wall of text to The E.
I had resolved to not respond to your reply to my comment that mentioned IQ, as it is somewhat of a red herring, not directly addressing this topic. Then I decided, that I did need a right of reply, as my casual single sentence had attracted a page of critical attack.
I do agree that IQ isn't a definitive measure of intelligence (much as I'd like to, being way over on the right of the Belbin graph) and that it tends to be culture specific. We have a TV show here called The Einstein Factor, which is a general knowledge quiz, and as such funny as Albert would have been flat out telling you what time of day it was.
That said, I was involved in an assessment of our senior public service chiefs, testing them for IQ, EQ, and a myriad of other such tests.
There was a general correlation between successful departments, and scores from their heads. Far from exact, but enough to suggest that there was some utility in using these tests as part of the selection process.
As to my casual assertion that conservatives tend to be dumber, I'll double down anecdotally by mentioning that among my circle of friends, the conservatives don't have any understanding on topics like climate change or Covid vaccines, they just know that they are against it.


I try to work at respecting everyone, but it can be difficult. When I start hearing stupid stuff I am tempted to think of them as the dull knives in the drawer. Usually the dull knives are conservatives. Yet put these same folk in an environment where they are well informed and comfortable, they can start looking a lot smarter. Ideology tends to serve as a way of compensating for things about which people are uninformed or don't understand.

As for IQ, it is supposed to measure problem solving skills and creativity. And it is very culturally specific. Throw me into a community of blacks in the inner city and hand me an IQ test, I start looking really dumb...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine
Post by edgeworthy   » Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:36 pm

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Did anyone else catch the Russian Foreign Minister praising Fox News for their coverage!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1504867573237755911
What's the word we should be using for Fox now?
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