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All the other forms of government

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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Daryl   » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:45 pm

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A really perfect political world would have freedom to travel to any country you preferred as long as you were totally prepared to accept the values of that country and to contribute to its welbeing.
Unfortunately we don't have freedom of travel, and some of those who do make it don't accept the laws and customs of the host country.
Of course if it did work we might end up with any country that had full Sharia law being populated only by bitter and ill educated men, while those that espoused extreme political correctness would have significant numbers of narrow minded women. I'd be off to the one that liked a laugh, and had lots of broad minded women.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Invictus   » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:13 am

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Reckon you folks may find this interesting
http://www.seasteading.org/about/visionstrategy/

These folk don't see seasteading as a government per se, but as a way to make government more competitive. They think that if the the adverage household or city block can pack up and move,and take their home with them,then government will have to adapt more quickly to be able to keep their citizens. They compare government to ISPs, basically saying that if your in one country and dissatisfied with the quality of government, it is extremely difficult to change it. Also, there is no room for new entry into the market (of governments), so governments generally aren't worried about losing citizens en masse to better providers. Interesting read.

"When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." Sam Starfall
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:23 am

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1. Feudalistic monarchies - power is held on a hereditary basis so that individuals are motivated to care for the country, duchy etc because it is their children's inheritance. The traditional form of government for most of human history and in general worked OK.

Hmm...

You´re bunching together monarchy, feudalism and make no difference between absolute and constitutional.
Very wrong.
Feudalism is based on holding land or titles based on service of some sort.
Monarchy has no such requirement.
And very few monarchs have been truly absolute in power. And if they do, they are effectively an autocrat rather than a monarch, at least in the sense of political classification.

And overall, feudalism tends to force stratified and very differentiated societies with a lot of longterm instability and problems. So i would rank it down among the worst.

2. Government by an elite. Power is ever shifting between cliches and families so rulers are less motivated to care for the country and spend most of their energy fighting one another. Communism seems to work this way in practice.

More like the oligarchs calling it communism as an excuse to rule.

And then comes the big question, elite based on what definition? If based on money then you probably have people only interested in treating the state as a corporation, and that´s nearly always a very bad thing.

If you base it on political influence, well then you get the best liars and backstabbers as your rulers.

Basically, whatever you base the definition on, you are more likely than not to end up with a bunch of schmucks. So, definitely not one of the overall better ideas in my opinion.

Look at Somalia for a good example of why this is generally a terrible idea.

3. Government by strongman. Power is held by an iron fist. The strongman and his family are strongly motivated to loot the country and steal while the stealling is good since they will have to flee the country as soon as they lose power. Typical government of most 3rd world countries.

I think you will find more oligarchies than autocrats among the 3rd world nations.

And while autocrats are among the very worst, they can also be quite beneficial. Autocracies are very susceptible to corruption, so even benign autocrats tend to cause a lot of bad stuff, simply because of not knowing what every single one of their underlings do.

4. Theocracy. Government by a religious elite. Opposition is not only opposing the leadership but is opposing God, therefore all opposition is a sin. Thought crimes aka not thinking that the leadership is wonderful is a sin. Initially often founded by individuals who have genuine faith, over time it is highjacked by those who abuse religion to enhance their own personal power. Iran is an example.

Almost without exception VERY bad.
Which is why i say, as always, religion and politics should always be kept separate.

5. Anarchy. While a favorite of idealistic authors, in reality it results in every criminal thug having a field day. Inherently unstable it typically lasts for a short period of time.

Yeah, if nothing else because it leaves a vacuum that someone can and usually will fill.


My own country used elective monarchy fairly successfully. Basically, someone was given a lot of power(not absolute), but if people don´t like what they do, they get kicked out. Or if they really behaved badly, killed(lawfully so).

Then, depending on how you want to define it, republic may or may not be a separate form apart from democracy.

Stratocracy, military rule by law, is at least one other variant. Ends up somewhere in the middle, or upper half of your scale i think.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:43 am

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Invictus wrote:
So what do you folks think?

Actually, not so good. Mostly because upper house will be filled with people who should probably be doing something more useful than politics.
And generally a lot of OLD people.

And, it´s not that hard to fake a "proven that they put the needs of the community ahead of their own".

And i would most strongly suggest that you split head of government and head of state into two positions.
You can´t really have a head of government who actually has nothing to do with the current government. (well you can of course, but it makes for some serious strangeness at times.)
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Invictus   » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:50 am

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Tenshinai wrote:And i would most strongly suggest that you split head of government and head of state into two positions.
You can´t really have a head of government who actually has nothing to do with the current government. (well you can of course, but it makes for some serious strangeness at times.)


True, but in most cases I know of where they are split, the actual power of the head of state is minimal. Case in point, Australia, or Great Britain. In Australia, the Governor General is the head of state, (On behalf of the Queen of Australia, who is also the Queen of England, who we've in fact been officially ignoring since the eighties. We're strange folk us Aussies.) But all actual power rests with the head of government, the prime minister. As for Great Britain, my understanding is that the monarchy reigns, but doesn't rule. Power still tends to be focused on the Prime Minister. (I may be wrong here, and if I am, please say so.)

Most obvious case that I know of with joint heads of state and government is the US. The president is both.

Tenshinai wrote:My own country used elective monarchy fairly successfully. Basically, someone was given a lot of power(not absolute), but if people don´t like what they do, they get kicked out. Or if they really behaved badly, killed(lawfully so).


Could you expand on that a bit? It sounds interesting. :)

"When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." Sam Starfall
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:44 am

Daryl
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As an older Aussie I still remember 1975 when the Governor General sacked the Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam).
So all the power doesn't rest with the Prime Minister. Admittedly history has been much kinder to the PM than the GG.
I know that I'm still annoyed about it, and want a republic so our country does not have a foreigner as our head of state.
Invictus wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:And i would most strongly suggest that you split head of government and head of state into two positions.
You can´t really have a head of government who actually has nothing to do with the current government. (well you can of course, but it makes for some serious strangeness at times.)


True, but in most cases I know of where they are split, the actual power of the head of state is minimal. Case in point, Australia, or Great Britain. In Australia, the Governor General is the head of state, (On behalf of the Queen of Australia, who is also the Queen of England, who we've in fact been officially ignoring since the eighties. We're strange folk us Aussies.) But all actual power rests with the head of government, the prime minister. As for Great Britain, my understanding is that the monarchy reigns, but doesn't rule. Power still tends to be focused on the Prime Minister. (I may be wrong here, and if I am, please say so.)

Most obvious case that I know of with joint heads of state and government is the US. The president is both.

Tenshinai wrote:My own country used elective monarchy fairly successfully. Basically, someone was given a lot of power(not absolute), but if people don´t like what they do, they get kicked out. Or if they really behaved badly, killed(lawfully so).


Could you expand on that a bit? It sounds interesting. :)
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Tenshinai   » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:40 pm

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Invictus wrote:True, but in most cases I know of where they are split, the actual power of the head of state is minimal. Case in point, Australia, or Great Britain. In Australia, the Governor General is the head of state, (On behalf of the Queen of Australia, who is also the Queen of England, who we've in fact been officially ignoring since the eighties. We're strange folk us Aussies.) But all actual power rests with the head of government, the prime minister. As for Great Britain, my understanding is that the monarchy reigns, but doesn't rule. Power still tends to be focused on the Prime Minister. (I may be wrong here, and if I am, please say so.)

Quite true, here as well. The advantage of that however is that you have a less politicised gathering point, which can come in very handy at times.

Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSwMS_Sverige
When Karl Staaff became prime minister in the fall of 1911, the funding was postponed. This caused the "Pansarbåtinsamlingen", a fundraising aiming at the 12 million Kronor the ship was estimated to cost. With the backing of King Gustav V in a little over 3 months 15 million was raised to build the ship. This caused a political crisis, and the fall of the government. The new government accepted the money and let the contract for the ship, which was named Sverige for the people who had paid for it.

Invictus wrote:Could you expand on that a bit? It sounds interesting.

Hmm, not as much as i might have liked, it´s over a decade since i read about it.

And after 10 minutes of thinking i still cant think of a good way to write about it... :?
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